Shove/Fold

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Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:58 pm

Hey Joda,

Been Working on my short stack game lately. I Downloaded the HR trial, and spent a day Just looking at Push/folds. This is what I came up with for when we're 15bb or less with ante`s in play. This is a little tighter than the HR ranges, I shaved off the absolute bottom of the ranges HR provided. I think it was .10 and up, with minor exceptions.

So far this has been working out for me, But I feel there are a few spots where I should be a bit tighter, and a spots that I should be a lot looser.

Tighter Example: We`re UTG with JTs, effective stack is 15bb, Nash says to shove, but I feel this is a vulnerable hand to be pushing here.

Looser Example: With 2-5bb Nash doesn`t say to shove ATC from any position. I really feel I should be shipping ATC <5bb from the HJ on.

Any suggestions on where I should be tighter and looser in my Push/Fold ranges? Sorry for posting all the ranges, still simplifying into chart form in excel.


Push/Fold

15BB

UTG -88+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AQo+
UTG+1 -66+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+
MP -55+,A9s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo
MP+1 -33+,A7s+,A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+,KQo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A9o+,KJo+
CO -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
BU -22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,Jto
SB -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,95s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,A2o+,K2o+,Q7o+,J9o+,T8o+,98o,87o

14BB

UTG -77+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AQo+
UTG+1 -55+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo
MP -44+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo
MP+1 -33+,A7s+,A5s-A4s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+,KQo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A9o+,KJo+
CO -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A4o+,KTo+,QJo,JTo
BU -22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
SB -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J3s+,T5s+,95s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,A2o+,K2o+,Q6o+,J8o+,T8o+,97o+,87o,76o

13BB

UTG -77+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AQo+
UTG+1 -55+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo
MP -44+,A8s+,A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+,KQo
MP+1 -22+,A3s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+,KJo+
HJ -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A8o+,KJo+,QJo
CO -22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A3o+,KTo+,QJo,JTo
BU -22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q8s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
SB -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T4s+,95s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T8o+,97o+,87o,76o

12BB

UTG -55+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo
UTG+1 -44+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,ATo+,KQo
MP -33+,A7s+,A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+,KQo
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A9o+,KJo+
HJ -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,KTo+,QJo
CO -22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
BU -22+,A2s+,K3s+,Q6s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
SB -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T4s+,95s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,A2o+,K2o+,Q4o+,J7o+,T8o+,97o+,87o,76o

11BB

UTG -55+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo
UTG+1 -44+,A8s+,A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+,KQo
MP -33+,A4s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+,KQo
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A9o+,KJo+,QJo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,A5o,KTo+,QJo
CO -22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
BU -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q6s+,J7s+,T7s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o+,K7o+,Q9o+,JTo,T9o
SB -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T4s+,95s+,84s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q3o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o,76o

10BB

UTG -44+,A8s+,A5s,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,ATo+,KQo
UTG+1 -33+,A7s+,A5s-A4s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+,KQo
MP -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KJo+
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A8o+,KJo+,QJo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A4o+,KTo+,QJo,JTo
CO -22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

9BB

UTG -33+,A7s+,A5s-A4s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,ATo+
UTG+1 -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KJo+
MP -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A8o+,KJo+
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,KTo+,QJo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
CO -22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,76s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

8BB

UTG -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KJo+
UTG+1 -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o+,KJo+
MP -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A7o+,KTo+,QJo
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,A4o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
CO -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,76s,A2o+,K8o+,QTo+,JTo
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

7BB

UTG -22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o+,KJo+
UTG+1 -22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A7o+,KTo+,QJo
MP -22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,A5o+,KTo+,QJo
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K3s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
CO -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q6s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K6o+,Q9o+,JTo,T9o
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

6BB

UTG -22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A7o+,KTo+,QJo
UTG+1 -22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A5o+,KTo+,QTo+
MP -22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A3o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K8o+,Q9o+,JTo
CO -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K5o+,Q8o+,J9o+,T9o
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

5BB

UTG -22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,A4o+,KTo+,QTo+
UTG+1 -22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A3o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
MP -22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q6s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,K7o+,Q9o+,JTo
HJ -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K6o+,Q8o+,J9o+,T9o
CO -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q3s+,J6s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K4o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

4BB

UTG -22+,A2s+,K3s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A3o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
UTG+1 -22+,A2s+,K3s+,Q6s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K8o+,Q9o+,JTo
MP -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K7o+,Q9o+,J9o+
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K6o+,Q8o+,J9o+,T9o
HJ -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q3s+,J6s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K4o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o
CO -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K2o+,Q6o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

3BB

UTG -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K7o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o
UTG+1 -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q3s+,J6s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K5o+,Q8o+,J9o+,T9o
MP -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J5s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K4o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T8o+
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K3o+,Q6o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o
HJ -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J3s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T8o+,98o
CO -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T4s+,95s+,85s+,75s+,65s,A2o+,K2o+,Q4o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

2BB

UTG -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T3s+,95s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,54s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o
UTG+1 -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,95s+,84s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q4o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o,65o
MP -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,93s+,84s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,A2o+,K2o+,Q3o+,J5o+,T6o+,97o+,86o+,76o
MP+1 -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,93s+,84s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J5o+,T6o+,96o+,86o+,76o,54o
HJ -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,84s+,73s+,63s+,53s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J4o+,T6o+,96o+,86o+,76o
CO -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,83s+,73s+,63s+,53s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J2o+,T4o+,95o+,85o+,75o+,65o
BU -ATC
SB -ATC

1BB -ATC ANY POS.

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:08 pm

Here comes some revelation for you.

What is it that nash is displaying? Is it the hands you should push? Not exactly.

Nash shows you something different, something special, it shows what you should push if everyone played perfectly!!!

Who cares?

If someone deviates from the calling range nash gives, then you gain , even if they are too lose OR too tight!

Furthermore, if they deviate far, we can exploit them further by adjusting. So if they fold too much we will push further.

We can simulate this on the NR calc, by locking in a tighter nash range, and the calc will tell us how much looser we should push.

We should never really fold an un adjusted nash hand, because they are unexploitable and pretty much always +ev. So I wouldn't chop off a single hand!!!!

But if you look at how loose our opponents are 'supposed' to call, you'll see we should almost always be adding hands!!!

The reason nash won't shove atc when we have 2.5bbs is because it assumes the bb NEVER folds there we always have to flip vs the bb, so we need a decent hand. So if the bb is bad and folds if he doesn't have a good hand we can often shove atc, if the bb calls always then we can fold some junk.

We can simulate that by look at HR and tightening the bb calling range to only decent hands, then nash will have us shove close to atc or atc.



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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:11 pm

I believe there is a slight mistake in them but the overall concept is there and should help alot....

https://vimeo.com/35996940

https://vimeo.com/35996707

https://vimeo.com/35997342
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:31 pm

where can we try this calc out?

is it free?
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:11 pm

JodaB.
"If someone deviates from the calling range nash gives, then you gain , even if they are too lose OR too tight!"


This is what came to mind when I was creating them! Very Happy

JodaB.
"We should never really fold an un adjusted nash hand, because they are unexploitable and pretty much always +ev. So I wouldn't chop off a single hand!!!!"


OK I will do them over without any adjustments. Will be keeping 10bb rule for the BU and SB tho.(so freaken valuable!)

JodaB.
"We can simulate that by look at HR and tightening the bb calling range to only decent hands, then nash will have us shove close to atc or atc."


This should answer my question about opening up Shocked you went over a bit of this in you shove homework video, thx I have a reference to go by.

Jodab.
"I believe there is a slight mistake in them but the overall concept is there and should help alot...."

Going to watch these, then will go back to work with HR.

SmokerB.
"where can we try this calc out?

is it free?"

It's the Holdemresources.net calc Joda introduced to us on PFC. You can use it for two weeks free. (4 weeks if you have 2 computers). I suggest to not waste your trial, create a plan of what you want to accomplish with it, then download it and go hog wild for that two weeks.

When I download it again I going to work on shove/folds, calling AI's & re-shoving. Eventually I will have to buy a license, but I want to use profits for this.

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:24 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:


OK I will do them over without any adjustments. Will be keeping 10bb rule for the BU and SB tho.(so freaken valuable!)
you should be able to prove them yourself using the calc too.

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:28 pm

JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:


OK I will do them over without any adjustments. Will be keeping 10bb rule for the BU and SB tho.(so freaken valuable!)
you should be able to prove them yourself using the calc too.


Fack forget to put that in my post! I was so thinking that!! Laughing

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:35 pm

JodaB. wrote:

https://vimeo.com/35996940


Remember watching this on PFC... Good refresher tho, never read the G-Bucks Theorem. Going to read it tomorrow.

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:13 pm

i watched part 1 and 2 of the videos

always so impressed with the depth of your videos. Couldn't get to part 3 just yet, but I will.

part 1 was a nice refresher to you sitting me down in your living room Laughing

part 2 was really good

joda , how much does our shove chart differ from that of the calc?

I also meant to always ask you... how does joda bux differ from g bucks?



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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:08 am

Smoker.B. wrote:
joda , how much does our shove chart differ from that of the calc?
Well I was gonna let RW finish hes before I explained, but the one I have IS the nash equilibrium for each position, for each stack size. 1 side for antes 1 side for no antes.

And of course I'll give it to him, Tony guerrara put it out for free. So i only know the equilibrium I adjust me shoves from there in game. So really we need to memorize the equilibrium and we spend time learning how to adjust it.

I also meant to always ask you... how does joda bux differ from g bucks?
Ja Ja, all you have to do is learn about each concept and you can answer it yourself!



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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:22 pm

Just downloaded Tony's jam/fold & calling charts. I'm assuming these are the unexploitable jam hand ranges I'm looking at.

For the calling chart lets look at a couple examples to see if i have it right...

example #1:

BVB (5bb) No Antes
PU: SB
CA: BB 68.6% 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J3o+ T2s+ T6o+ 94s+ 96o+ 85s+ 87o 75s+ 65s

So the SB shoves 5bb, with 5bb+ we should be calling with 68.6% of hands. right?

For the example above, If we change the SB stack to 10bb and our stack to 5bb, does this change anything? (I don't think so cause its still effectively a 5bb shove.)

example #2:
PU: 6
CA: 5 8.0% 66+ ATs+ AJo+
----0 9.8% 44+ ATs+ ATo+
----SB 10.9% 33+ A9s+ ATo+ KQs
----BB 19.2% 22+ A4s+ A8o+ K9s+ KJo+ QTs+ J9s+ T9s 98s

So if Pos. 6(UTG) shoves 5bb with no antes, Positions 1-5 should call with the same range, the BU 9.8% , the SB 10.9% & the BB 19.2% (not overcall)



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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:52 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Just downloaded Tony's jam/fold & calling charts. I'm assuming these are the unexploitable jam hand ranges I'm looking at.

For the calling chart lets look at a couple examples to see if i have it right...

example #1:

BVB (5bb) No Antes
PU: SB
CA: BB 68.6% 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J3o+ T2s+ T6o+ 94s+ 96o+ 85s+ 87o 75s+ 65s

So the SB shoves 5bb, with 5bb+ we should be calling with 68.6% of hands. right?

For the example above, If we change the SB stack to 10bb and our stack to 5bb, does this change anything? (I don't think so cause its still effectively a 5bb shove.)

example #2:
PU: 6
CA: 5 8.0% 66+ ATs+ AJo+
----0 9.8% 44+ ATs+ ATo+
----SB 10.9% 33+ A9s+ ATo+ KQs
----BB 19.2% 22+ A4s+ A8o+ K9s+ KJo+ QTs+ J9s+ T9s 98s

So if Pos. 6(UTG) shoves 5bb with no antes, Positions 1-5 should call with the same range, the BU 9.8% , the SB 10.9% & the BB 19.2% (not overcall)

Yes these are correct, however this assume that the pushers are shoving the correct nash ranges. Since they rarely do we should adjust there ranges to what they shove and then call with the adjusted range.

You are correct only the effective stack matters, many players mess this up all day long.

And yes most of the mp positions will call with the same range, but the sb and the bb are getting a better price.

Notice the BB is supposed to call the widest, therefore he has the opportunity to make more mistakes by folding to many hands.
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:04 pm

Kool thx. Ya I just wanted to make sure I had the base ranges and was reading it correctly before I start adjusting the ranges.

as for the bb, I'm think I am starting to see JODA _ _ _

Going to watch the last two vids and the shove homework video again. Going to focus on how you adjust their calling ranges. Any tips?

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:13 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote: Any tips?
post hand historys and discuss them, and take me up on the skype time
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:29 pm

Adjusting thought: In example 2, I would adjust the BB's range to the SB's range if my opponent is tight.

Was writing this well you posted
Will play a couple games on Friday and post hands.( Will play according to the charts)
As for Skype, on the April 7th I'm free after 7pm my time. It's hard right now cause I'm on days. It's a lot easier when I switch to afternoons.

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:41 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Adjusting thought: In example 2, I would adjust the BB's range to the SB's range if my opponent is tight.

Was writing this well you posted
Will play a couple games on Friday and post hands.( Will play according to the charts)
As for Skype, on the April 7th I'm free after 7pm my time. It's hard right now cause I'm on days. It's a lot easier when I switch to afternoons.
I don't think you said exactly what the sb range is.

and yes whenever you get a chance set it up.
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:45 pm

10.9% 33+ A9s+ ATo+ KQs > BB 19.2% 22+ A4s+ A8o+ K9s+ KJo+ QTs+ J9s+ T9s 98s

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:46 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote: 10.9% 33+ A9s+ ATo+ KQs > BB 19.2% 22+ A4s+ A8o+ K9s+ KJo+ QTs+ J9s+ T9s 98s
Oh ic its for example2.

I think if your oppenents range is tight, you should adjust their range in the nash calc and then let nash tell us what we should call?
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:52 pm

I was using that example as my opponents tighter calling range so I can figure out how much wider I can shove.

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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:58 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:I was using that example as my opponents tighter calling range so I can figure out how much wider I can shove.
Ha I got lost in all this..

Gimme the non adjusted range with only the players involved (pusher/caller)

and then give the adjusted ranges:
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:22 pm

OK so if we are effectively 5bb deep on the BU with no antes

we shove....
22+ Ax+ K2s+ K5o+ Q6s+ Q9o+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 97s+ 87s 76s
(from open shove chart)

the small blind folds....

A perfect player in the bb would call with....
48.4% 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J5s+ J8o+ T7s+ T9o 97s+ 86s+ 76s 65s
(from open shove calling chart)

But we know that our is opponent is tight and will fold a portion of this range, so I adjust his range to something like this....
32.1% 22+ Ax+ K4s+ K9o+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ (Which is the same as the SB's range in the call chart scenario) edit: this can be even tighter IMO, Just an example.

So if that is the case we can ship wider. I was looking at how to change his range, so we can lock it in and find out how much more we can ship in that spot.





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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:06 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:OK so if we are effectively 5bb deep on the BU with no antes

we shove....
22+ Ax+ K2s+ K5o+ Q6s+ Q9o+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 97s+ 87s 76s
(from open shove chart)

the small blind folds....

A perfect player in the bb would call with....
48.4% 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J5s+ J8o+ T7s+ T9o 97s+ 86s+ 76s 65s
(from open shove calling chart)

But we know that our is opponent is tight and will fold a portion of this range, so I adjust his range to something like this....
32.1% 22+ Ax+ K4s+ K9o+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ (Which is the same as the SB's range in the call chart scenario) edit: this can be even tighter IMO, Just an example.

So if that is the case we can ship wider. I was looking at how to change his range, so we can lock it in and find out how much more we can ship in that spot.
Ok see, so we are on the button, and we know the bb calls tighter than nash. So intuitively we know we can shove wider.

the only thing is we have to do something with the sb's range, we should either lock it in as calling nash initially or adjust it tighter as well and see what happens when both the blinds call tighter.

if you don't lock in the sb range then it will 'float' a little with our pushing range. In other words the sb knows bb is calling tighter, and therefore knows we are shoving wider and sb will call wider, therefore we will have shove tighter, because the sb will call looser if we don't.


If its confusing don't worry you are getting it and it will make sense soon.
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:43 pm

So I decided to work out why shipping ATC in the SB with 10bb is profitable...

Scenario: BVB, SB shove, 10BB, Antes

Nash say's to shove in SB(71%)
22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,93s+,84s+,74s+,63s+,53s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J5o+,T7o+,96o+,86o+,76o,65o


Nash say's the BB should be calling with this range (52%)
22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J5s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T8o+


But we know that our opponent is not calling with all of this range, so we can take a few hands out.

For us to be able Ship ATC, our opponents need to be calling with this range(40.3%)
22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T8s+,A2o+,K5o+,Q8o+,J9o+


Now looking at that range most of our opponents are not capable of calling even that wide

so we can expect most players to call with something more like this(27.6%)
22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo


Which Means Shipping ATC is Extremely Profitable in this Situation!! Shocked

Did I make any mistakes in this breakdown?



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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  JodaB. on Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:48 pm

boom pancakes!
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Re: Shove/Fold

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:55 pm



#ontothenextone

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Re: Shove/Fold

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