3 bet shove spot

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3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:57 am

this player has been raise folding quite a bit in late position, so i put him on a very wide range. what hands should i ship here?

PokerStars Hand #101160869204: Tournament #813010072, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (350/700) - 2013/07/09 3:48:44 ET
Table '813010072 15' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: TSIPOURAKI69 (6995 in chips)
Seat 2: Don Galimo (9308 in chips)
Seat 3: MagenviDda (15411 in chips)
Seat 4: Monterpol (34191 in chips)
Seat 5: xBAPBAPx (20272 in chips)
Seat 6: ryan1111 (11257 in chips)
Seat 7: garth649 (1205 in chips)
Seat 8: I travel OZ (22749 in chips)
Seat 9: 87proman (6887 in chips)
TSIPOURAKI69: posts the ante 85
Don Galimo: posts the ante 85
MagenviDda: posts the ante 85
Monterpol: posts the ante 85
xBAPBAPx: posts the ante 85
ryan1111: posts the ante 85
garth649: posts the ante 85
I travel OZ: posts the ante 85
87proman: posts the ante 85
ryan1111: posts small blind 350
garth649: posts big blind 700
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ryan1111 [7s Kd]
I travel OZ: folds
87proman: folds
TSIPOURAKI69: folds
Don Galimo: folds
MagenviDda: folds
Monterpol: raises 840 to 1540
xBAPBAPx: folds
ryan1111: ???

Ok what do you want know about this hand?


Last edited by RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:40 am

RW wrote:this player has been raise folding quite a bit in late position, so i put him on a very wide range.
This is a leak. Thankfully you've come to fix it!

How do we construct 3bet shoving ranges?
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:55 pm

JodaB. wrote:
RW wrote:this player has been raise folding quite a bit in late position, so i put him on a very wide range.
This is a leak. Thankfully you've come to fix it!

How do we construct 3bet shoving ranges?

With the Nash calculator and knowledge of fold equity? I really don't know!!

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:56 pm

[quote="RWPKRPLR1"][quote="JodaB."]
RW wrote: I really don't know!!
how do we define fold equity?
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:03 pm

JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:
RW wrote: I really don't know!!
how do we define fold equity?

How often a Plr may fold a certain part of their range. Don't know how to do the calculation tho.
So we would have to put our villain on a range and determine how much of that range he is folding for us to 3bet.

If he is not folding any of his range we should maybe stick to a value 3bet range and if he is folding some of it then we can open up our 3bet range.

P.s I have to leave for work in a hour so if I disappear don't get get discouraged


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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:11 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:
RW wrote: I really don't know!!
how do we define fold equity?


So we would have to put our villain on a range and determine how much of that range he is  folding for us to 3bet.


This is what will define our fold equity.

The ratio of hands that open vs hands that call our 3bet.

How might we define these two ranges?
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:18 pm

Watching their play, making notes, hud stats?
Edit how much of our stack size affects them?

I really don't know this part

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:39 pm

So first thing we need is solid min raise/fold fundamentals.

In order to know our opponents min raising opening strategies for certain spots we need to have a good grasp on the concept which comes in part from working on our own min game

Then we should consider a few more things.

One such thing would be what hands would we call with if villain shoved his whole range? This we can get a feel for in an icm calculator. Certainly if we would call a shove vs villains min raise range, then we can 3bet shove those some hands.

Hold em resources will also calculate a min raising equilibrium for us which is a good idea to have a solid grasp of. Not that our opponents play like that but it will be a great back bone for our adjustments. If we say our opponent is loose or tight, now we have something to call standard and base them on.

A second consideration might be what the average player (if rando) might reasonably be expected to min raise/fold in such a spot. We can learn about this from other better players who have a decent grasp of how others player. We can also use our own experience and intuition to understand the general strategy of the general field.

One important consideration when adjusting our 3bets vs villains based on reads from previous play is position. Min raise folding ranges can vary greatly from position to position, so we should be very cautious to adjust without really solid information.

Seeing villain min fold a few times will not be sufficient to confidently adjust, so until we get a solid read (like a sd) we should only 3bet a reserved range likely somewhere between equilibrium and our average player profile 3betting range.
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:10 am

Kudos to u for identifying the root of this problem! Up until now I have just some charts I found on the net for opening hands in MTT, not knowing the numbers behind it and really why I am using it.

I will take a look at your video on min raising tonight and work on my opening ranges again over the next few days when I have time. I am very busy this weekend with family stuff so I should have something to post on Monday or so.

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:15 am

So this is the 25bb+ ORS ranges I got off the net that I used about a year ago…
EP - 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+
MP - 22+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+
HJ - 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo
CO - 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo
BU - 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo, T9o
SB -  22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T5s+, 96s+, 87s, 76s, A2o+, K3o+, Q6o+, J7o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o

At the the time I can be honest I was looking for a quick answer so I could learn other aspects….

Then a few months back I worked with the HR calc for my push fold ranges up to 25bb and adopted these ranges for my 25+bb ORS ranges because they seem not to change all that much when I put in a higher effective bb amount.
Without Antes
UTG - QQ+ AQs+ AKo
UTG+1 – TT+ AQs+ AKo
MP - TT+ AJs+ AQo+
MP+1 - TT+ ATs+ AQo+ KQs
HJ - 99+  ATs+ AJo+ KTs+ QJs
CO - 22+ A9s+ A5s AJo+ KTs+ KQo QTs+ JTs
BU - 22+ A7s+ A5s-A4s ATo+ K8s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s 98s
SB – 22+ Ax+ K4s+ KTo+ Q6s+ QTo+ J7s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 76s 65s
With Antes
UTG - TT+ ATs+ AQo+ KQs
UTG+1 – TT+  ATs+ AQo+ KJs+ QJs
MP - 99+ ATs+ AQo+ KTs+ QTs+
MP+1 - 55+ A9s+ AJo+ KTs+ QTs+ JTs
HJ - 22+ A8s+ A5s AJo+ K9s+ KQo Q9s+ J9s+ T9s
CO - 22+ A4s+ ATo+ K8s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T8s+ 98s
BU - 22+ A2s+ A5o+ K7s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 97s+ 87s 76s
SB - 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K7o+ Q4s+ Q9o+ J5s+ J9o+ T6s+ T8o+ 96s+ 98o 85s+ 87o 75s+ 64s+ 54s

Note I made a few minor changes at the time because I personally valued certain hands a lot less in certain positions.

I wanted to create this post for you to see what I was using before.. and also I wanted to clairify how I am going to create my new ranges which I will know will be my value ORS ranges.

To create my new min raising with antes ranges, my hand needs 43% equity or better  against a villain playing the optimal range for it to be profitable, correct?

So let’s use a button attacking the unknown players in the blinds at a full table as my example….

So if the sb or the bb need to be playing something like this range
22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo (34.2%)
We can min raise this range profitably on the BU
22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q9s+,JTs,A2o+,KTo+,QJo (27%)
If we see the sb or the bb defend wider we should stay with this range and if we see that they’re folding any of their range we should open up to ATC.

Ok now that I just worked this out, its got to be wrong! Suited connectors should be in the raising range.

I might have to watch the video again!! PLS Help

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:27 am

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:

To create my new min raising with antes ranges, my hand needs 43% equity or better  against a villain playing the optimal range for it to be profitable, correct?
No this is not correct, its all mixed up. We'll get it straight though don't worry.

We are instead interested in how often our raise must make it through to pick up the binds an antes. Then we are interested in whether or not we pick up the blinds and antes often enough for our raise to be plus ev.

At this point we are not very interested in our own cards.
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:41 pm

So is it true then, that at this point, we are not sure what hands to open, or why we are opening them?
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:17 am

JodaB. wrote:So is it true then, that at this point, we are not sure what hands to open, or why we are opening them?

Sorry I haven't responded to this earlier, last night I pulled a all nighter so I could get to my grandmothers early and help her with the moving sale.

Mathematically yes I have no clue what hands we should be opening from each pos. and why I am raising from each position, I am not a math player at all. I have many reasons why i would open a pot,but they are all from the table dynamics, not by the numbers.

P.S I will be away all day again today so I will I can chat a bit more later.


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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:54 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:

Mathematically yes I have no clue what hands we should be opening from each pos. and  why I am raising from each position, I am not a math player at all. I have many reasons why i would open a pot,but they are all from the table dynamics, not by the numbers.

One things forums are really bad for is conditioning people to think poker is something it is not.  When players say "i'm not a math player" or "im a feel player" really they are admitting their understanding of the game stops right there.

The good news is once you understand the math behind opening you will realize that poker is a very quantifiable game, and you will seek to turn the lights on in all spots with 'math'.

To be clear I am not talking about complex numbers, but instead a logically understand of why we make each decision.

So I guess as a basic, if we haven't gone over it before why do we raise preflop?  It might be a good idea to create a whole new thread with that question.

ps. take your time, you don't have a deadline with me, only smoke does because 2 years later he's still asking me what hands to open pre flop and I gave him a chart Wink
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:09 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:this player has been raise folding quite a bit in late position, so i put him on a very wide range. what hands should i ship here?

PokerStars Hand #101160869204: Tournament #813010072, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (350/700) - 2013/07/09 3:48:44 ET
Table '813010072 15' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: TSIPOURAKI69 (6995 in chips)
Seat 2: Don Galimo (9308 in chips)
Seat 3: MagenviDda (15411 in chips)
Seat 4: Monterpol (34191 in chips)
Seat 5: xBAPBAPx (20272 in chips)
Seat 6: ryan1111 (11257 in chips)
Seat 7: garth649 (1205 in chips)
Seat 8: I travel OZ (22749 in chips)
Seat 9: 87proman (6887 in chips)
TSIPOURAKI69: posts the ante 85
Don Galimo: posts the ante 85
MagenviDda: posts the ante 85
Monterpol: posts the ante 85
xBAPBAPx: posts the ante 85
ryan1111: posts the ante 85
garth649: posts the ante 85
I travel OZ: posts the ante 85
87proman: posts the ante 85
ryan1111: posts small blind 350
garth649: posts big blind 700
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ryan1111 [7s Kd]
I travel OZ: folds
87proman: folds
TSIPOURAKI69: folds
Don Galimo: folds
MagenviDda: folds
Monterpol: raises 840 to 1540
xBAPBAPx: folds
ryan1111: ???

Ok what do you want know about this hand?

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:13 pm

What is the equilibrium min raise range for villains spot (or what would we open vs all good players)?

What would you open in villains spot?

What might villains opening range be?

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:28 pm

JodaB. wrote:What is the equilibrium min raise range for villains spot (or what would we open vs all good players)?

What would you open in villains spot?

What might villains opening range be?


1. I dont have holdem resources calc anymore so i'll have to get it again. so i don't know

2. ATC to completely honest

3. 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo


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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:34 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:

1. I dont have holdem resources calc anymore so i'll have to get it again. so i don't know
You don't need it, the question is what would you raise if it was all betrthanphil behind to act.

2. ATC to completely honest

3. 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

thats a decent range I wouldn't put every suited K tho. Do I read the hh right that the bb is all in essentially atc?


Last edited by JodaB. on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:41 pm

Still ATC against all BTP's

so more like 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

and yes bb is atc

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:53 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Still ATC against all BTP's
you can't raise wider then the non exploitable range vs btp's because you once you do you become exploitable and btp will exploit the shit out of you.

I know u dont' know what the eq range here is, but it won't be atc because you just give each btp so much fold equity when they 3bet shove that they will 3bet shove atc on you.

Think of equilibrium as the middle way, or what a tag abc reg would play

anyways im just getting you used to the question it will eventually make more sense to you.

did you mean wouldn't? cause i did include all suited kings
ya

and yes bb is atc
what does this mean to the 3 reasons we raise?
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:08 pm

I think a TAG ABC player would raise for value here since he can't steal against a player thats going to shove ATC and he also can't raise to win postflop ev. so his  range would be more like 22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

edit: maybe even a little tighter

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:16 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:I think a TAG ABC player would raise for value here since he can't steal against a player thats going to shove ATC and he also can't raise to win postflop ev. so his  range would be more like 22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
Ya exactly, they can still play post vs players other than the bb but cleary his range will be skewed towards hands he wishes to get it in with the bb.

I think thats close to their opening range and we might use that to construct our 3bet shove range

also we are not sure that villain understands all this but without reads the bb being all in will tend to skew villains range towards a tighter side. I wouldn't expect it to be much tighter, as we should give a little room for villain to have some spew or mistake
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:28 pm

77+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+ so I think i should be 3 betting this range

edit added AJo


Last edited by RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  JodaB. on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:30 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:77+,ATs+,KQs,AQo+ so I think i should be 3 betting this range
we aren't quite at that question yet.. look up.
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Re: 3 bet shove spot

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:36 pm

"I think thats close to their opening range and we might use that to construct our 3bet shove range"
I thought u wanted me to create a 3 bet range

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Re: 3 bet shove spot

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