Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

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Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:47 am

www.pokerforum.ca/f12/george-zimmerman-30745/


I'll commenting on all this and explaining it soon! Wink

Feel free to comment in the meantime.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:40 pm

I have only watched a bit of this case here and there, but it sure seems like with no witnesses and only one side of the story, that they couldn't exactly say for sure if it was a murder or self defence. So with that being said, even if he did murder him, his lawyer was good enough to play the inconclusive card on the judge and jury.

I thought in the beginning of all this he would of got some jail time, but like others my thoughts were only a product of the media. Now that it's over, I really don't have a opinion on whether he did it or not. I just know that he has a great lawyer!!

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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:00 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote: I really don't have a opinion on whether he did it or not.
You think maybe he didn't do it?
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:19 pm

We know he shot him, but we don't know if it was self defence or not.

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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:22 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote: I really don't have a opinion on whether he did ___ or not.
fill in the blank where you wrote 'it' without using 'it'
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:42 pm

JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote: I really don't have a opinion on whether he did ___ or not.
fill in the blank where you wrote 'it' without using 'it'

So you feel he is guilty, how come? You obv have been following this, I haven't been.

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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:48 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote: I really don't have a opinion on whether he did ___ or not.
fill in the blank where you wrote 'it' without using 'it'

So you feel he is guilty, how come? You obv have been following this, I haven't been.
I think you changed the subject but I know you didn't answer my question Wink

Also you put out an opinion for me that I haven't suggested Smile
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:03 pm

So what r ur views on ' the crime'

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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:10 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:So what r ur views on ' the crime'
I have many things to say on the issue. I appreciate that you used 'the crime'. Its of course important to point out that technically Zimmerman committed no crime. Our population is not very educated and is in fact very confused on the way this world works.

I should be able to shed light on this and many aspects surrounding it, mostly without giving any opinion.

This might allow some to understand the Zimmerman case more clearly, but also the peoples reaction to it whether american, Canadian, black, white, hispanic, government, family of Tray or family of Zimmerman or anyone.

First to point out is that Zimmerman is absolutely not guilty at this time. We must be very careful with our words in this society.

The question of "do you think he is guilty?" is simply a trap. Simply put if the courts say so, then he is, if they do not, then he is not.

If we are not careful about this, we give prejudice and racist people the ability to incorrectly suggest that because Zimmerman is innocent that he did not purposely murder the young man.

I am not saying Zimmerman did, but being declared not guilty does not in any way show that Zimmerman did not carefully plan out the murder of the victim. In fact the verdict may not hold any true weight, depending on the validity of the american justice system.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:24 pm

Milo wrote:None of us have seen the totality of evidence that the jury was privy to, so I will not question their verdict. Plenty of others will do that anyway. The jury system used in both Canada and the US, while not exactly the same (I think our court system is slightly better), is going to lend itself to decisions that mystify, anger, and outrage people. This incident was a clusterfuck from the word "go", and the verdict just continues along that path. The truth of this is that the vast majority of this post could just as easily have been said if the verdict had been "guilty".
Am I to understand then, that it is not correct to question a courts decisions no matter how angering, mystifying, or outraging they are, not depending on the frequency of such decisions, or the amount of peoples or types of peoples they evoke?

I would also be interested to clarify how much better slightly refers to?

I would also like to understand at what point the word 'go' was said, in other words when did this clusterfuck start? Who started it, when did it start, and where did it start?

And what does it mean to say "and the verdict just continues along that path?"

Lastly how could the suggestion that the verdict was clusterfucked "just as easily have been said if the verdict had been guilty". That is Milo has suggested that guilty or not guilty are both clusterfucked.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:30 pm

Mike wrote:I think the problem is Florida laws, particularly the Stand Your Ground law. Anyone could go out and shoot someone dead, and concoct a story that the person was assaulting them and it is very hard to prove otherwise.
There is something not true about this otherwise you will have gang members murdering there problems at will. So I don't think 'anyone' could go out and shout 'someone'. By laws of human nature there would be a lot more murders. But it definitely sets a new precedent, one that I will not be so quick to define.

Mike wrote:
Anyhow, even if he moves Zimmerman will probably be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. He will be in a virtual prison anyway.
We would like this, to help us swallow such a hard pill I think, however Zimmerman could just as easily move to an 'anti-black' or 'pro gun' neighborhood and live his life not only free from fear, but as a hero.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:34 pm

Moveling wrote: I can't imagine what black people in that particular area are feeling.
We shouldn't, we should imagine how we all feel as a whole, not as separate groups that started these age old issues.

Moveling wrote:
Which begs the question, will this be the last black man shot by Zimmerman?
We can confidently suggest that he has immensely stronger grounds to claim self defense vs anyone now, especially back peoples.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:37 pm

Moose wrote:They were counseled they could return the lesser charge of manslaughter and didn't.
There is more to be said on this but I cannot be accurate. At the end of the trail the prosecution explained something along the lines of they presented the judge with the case and the judge suggest what the likely charge should be.

I could be wrong but I dont' think it was properly clarified in the PFC thread.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:42 pm

BM wrote:All the evidence points to this being a legitimate use of self defense. That is why the jury had very little choice in returning the verdict that they did (although I felt a manslaughter verdict was a possibility).

Indeed, the evidence was such that Mr. Zimmerman should not have even been charged - and only was so due to media and political pressure (they brought in a special prosecutor).


Was this homicide justifiable on the grounds of self-defense (which is a valid defense in ALL states AND Canada unless I'm mistaken)? Again, that's
what all available evidence points to. [/quote]Again this is simply stating since he is not guilty then the evidence suggests he is not guilty. And I could not that milo is the only one who liked this post.

If we assume the courts fair, If Zimmerman was found not guilty and BM suggested the evidence pointed otherwise, then he should be the prosecuting attorney or perhaps the judge since he has shown he is better able to understand the evidence than the trained professionals.

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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:45 pm

BM wrote:

Your point speaks to the validity of a neighborhood watch system, not the charge for which Mr. Zimmerman was acquitted of. Should private individuals watch or follow the activities of suspicious individuals in their community? Doing so is not illegal, really all you're doing is walking on public property.

What IS illegal is punching someone in the face and then getting on top of them and starting to pound their head off of the sidewalk. All available evidence points to this being the first illegal action that took place in this incident. In which case it was Trayvon Martin who went looking for trouble and, tragically, found it.
It was Milo who suggested we do not have access to all the available evidence, I am not sure who is correct. But we have two definitions, one of what the courts suggest the evidence points to and what the evidence actually points two. I shouldn't suggest they are different but I can point it its possible that they are different.

Also being cleared in court because of 'evidence' does not mean that Zimmerman did not brutally murder Trayvon in a vicious hate crime.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:52 pm

I'm going to call this a 'cop out'

BM wrote:I work with Young Offenders in a secure custody/detention centre. I can think of quite a few 17 year old "children" who I would most definitely not want to find myself on the wrong end of a ground-and-pound situation in. And as some of you know I'm not a small guy. Mr. Zimmerman is only 5'8" and described as "physically soft" at the time of the incident.
I can very easily understand how he felt (and indeed probably was) in danger of severe bodily harm or death.
First when talking about whether or not we should defend the decisions of the justice systems in place, I think we should point out that a security guard of BM's sort is always going to have a biased view. That is in order to not be hypocritical they must believe in the system they uphold. Since jobs are generally financially motivated (most would 'work' job that is intensely more fun and interesting), we might suggest this is quite so in this case.

As for not wanting to be in a ground and pound situation with a 17 year old, I wonder if that means BM would ever be caught following such a person with no actual reason alone in the dark?

And as a security guard I should hope that he is understating his self in regards to his ability to physically handle a single youth. If not, they should talk to me about Brazilian Ju Jitsu, I know plenty of people (some ladies) that would be quite well equipped for such a situation.

But that is beside the point that reality will show that someone Trays size cannot reasonable elicit a fear of serious harm by grabbing someone's trap muscles and trying to slam there head on the ground. I'll prob come back to that.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:55 pm

Milo wrote:This thing was a clusterfuck from the moment Zimmerman pulled the trigger.
This I don't understand, was the fighting on the ground not a cluster fuck? Pulling out the gun? Ignoring 911 directions? Walking around with a holstered gun? All decisions leading up to this? so much more was a clusterfuck I couldn't imagine starting it with the trigger.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:03 pm


Mark wrote:This article linked to the woman who's getting 20 years? How are people not furious?

Milo wrote:I agree with you that woman who got 20 years is a RIDICULOUS outcome, but lets stay on track, as that is an apples to oranges comparison anyway.

Milo wrote:I got a laugh out of Stevie Wonder, and all the other celebs who are now talking about boycotting Florida in the aftermath. Where were they when OJ got away with murder?
I'm wondering why one is apples and oranges and why one comparison is valid.

Zimmerman was clearly motivated by prejudices, as he had no clear basis to go after Tray, and although I am not sure he is racist as I understand it he knew Tray was black.

As for the OJ thing, it was not a race crime, it was a crime of passion, and he got off because of money, and many people of all races think its ridiculous.

But I should point out Milo's ability to defend the justice system in one scenario, refuse to comment on another, and then balk at it in a third.

Milo wrote:Oops, forgot . . . that was one for "their" side, wasn't it?
No see, we are all on the same side, not they, we should all be appalled that this young man died for no good reason whatsoever.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:39 am

....

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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:21 pm

There are a few things that need to be considered when discussing something like this. We have to remember that many things in this world cannot be understood in their parts. To truly understand tough spots we need to consider many different things

First is the general population equipped to understand and properly debate complex legal manners? Does the general pop think they are equipped? This falls on our education system primarily, are we sufficient educated in the matters of morality, law, politics, governing principles etc. It seems clear in talks like these we are not.

What is a lawyer, what is their motivation, and what are they supposed to try to accomplish and what are they actually trying to accomplish. Lawyer is a job like anything else and in generally the reason we do our jobs is for money. Very few lawyer would retain their practice if given infinite amounts of resources. Cases like this make the motivation that much worse with the high profile as there is a ton of money to be made by both sides. The issue is it will be regardless of the morality of the outcome.

We are left with the assumption in our superior (democratic) society that a lawyer will argue for the truth and that the justice system will seek to find that truth. But this is simply not how it works, nor does the system claim to work like that.

There is laid down a set of guidelines, basically a bureaucratic and capitalistic net set between the act of immorality and the punishment. As I will explain later this net is not free from the shadow and sham that is called politics as well. With money, intelligence, and political connections, one can easily traverse this net vs some of the most insidious crimes (genocide, mass human exploitation, slavery, global theft etc.).

In this way it is no ones job to understand what really happened in the 'crime'. Instead a new game with new rules is played, and it is the lawyers job to attack the problem with their own motivations (money). In this way they simple become an unscrupulous debater who's job it is to give the courts and excuse to see things their way. The picture gets even more clouded when a jury of peers is used, as these are far easier to manipulate whether individually or collectively (stemming from their lack of education on legal matters) .







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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:06 pm

Milo wrote:Martin died because Zimmerman feared for his life, fired his weapon, and fatally wounded Martin. That is the accepted verdict of the court. Loved your little site. Feel free to parse this however you like, Darb
See this I 100% agree with but it does not address morality, neither does our justice system. And I'm not sure it even claims too.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:36 pm

gta wrote:someone needs to get a life, the ass clown made a site just so he could respond to pfc posts...fkn declerate itt...isn't he banned from here?
These posts don't really bother me but I thought I should mention I certainly didn't create this sites to respond to pfc threads. It was mostly to create a comfortable place for player to talk strat. And for me to give some free time to help those that are interested in me helping them improve their game.

Not sure why such hate and why such a hateful person.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:25 pm

Milo wrote:
In English, the exact term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state", as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion.[15]
The Bill of Rights was one of the earliest examples in the world of complete religious freedom (adopted in 1791, only preceded by the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen in 1789) but it was interpreted as establishing a separation of Church and State only after the letter of Jefferson (see section United States for more details). At the time of the passage of the Bill of Rights, many states acted in ways that would now be held unconstitutional, some of them with official state churches. All of the early official state churches were disestablished by 1833.

Statements quotes and discussions like this are definitely relevant but great caution must be used in understanding them. It is not different than the whole but part of it, and this means in order to understand we must not look at things in their parts.

The papers cited are attempts by mankind to solidify and verify morally, legally, and intellectually justify the governing institutions of man. The question is then brought up about whether church and state should be separated. But one has forgotten to ask the question of whether or not that is even possible (regardless of whether it is decreed in some randoms letter).

I should point out the article above admits the bill of rights did not directly establish a separation until later interpreted to be that way. We should remember the saying "Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you god".

We should then look to the pledge of allegiance "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The nation was built of religious principle directly mixed into the justice system as well as the education system. This of course will build the foundation for the economic system as it can be shown to be as inseparable as church and state will be. We can see this with the daily life of an American that is exploitation for the reward of a good family Christian life over the lives of foreigners whom they will never meet of have a 2nd thought about.

What is more, is that democracy itself can easily be seen as a religion when we get rid of the silly idea of a separation between church and state. Religion, state, economy, education, all these are not separable, they are built on belief and the democratic belief is the silly notion that these things are in any way separable.

If we look to Canada it is just as easy to see when looking at our coinage, all fitted with pictures of royalty, which is of course ordained by the religious elite. If we look back on the history of man throughout the ages we will also notice these are the pillars that hold up kingdoms, and to loose control of one of them is to loose control of the nation.

The trick is to give them impression they are separate so as not to upset the people and awaken them to such suppression.
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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  sngking on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:57 pm

Ahhh so you were the new guy.Suspect 

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Re: Commentaries on Zimmerman trial.

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:11 pm

One thing we need to look at when considering the validity of American Justice system decisions is the foundation and roots the system and its legislation are founded on.

For example the CIA's first task was according to well known papers, to undermine the democracy in Italy should it not go in favor of the American government's wishes. The undermining of democracy by the CIA is something that has happened many times over years in regards to many countries.

One has to ask how a government that has agencies known of undermining democracy can claim that itself believes in such a system. When we put the parts together and begin to view them in a holistic fashion, we can see a system built on lies that keeps its momentum based on keeping the public misinformed of a holistic view point.

These are not secrets, they are now unclassified documents put forth in the publics plain view.
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