Smoke: opening ranges

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Smoke: opening ranges

Post  AlfreD2 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:39 pm

As per Joda's request this thread will house SmokerB's profile until he completes the opening range theory requirements to a satisfactory degree.

Joda and Smoke only please!,

AD2
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:12 pm

AlfreD, Joda ;

Im not all that interested in doing this.. I don't feel the need to be talked down to, or ridiculed.

I appreciate the offer, and know you are just looking out for me, but I'm not interested.

I know that you want to see me do well with poker and everything, but I've come to the realization that having you as a mentor wont work anymore. I try and try and suck it up and keep my mouth shut, but you are actually really offensive.

You are definitely extremely brilliant , and are a great coach for some, but your delivery is often confrontational and tough to decipher. You never get down to direct points and leave stuff tough to comprehend. I saw that mess on 2+2, and hopefully that opened your eyes and you can see why alot of people find you hard to understand.

I'd love to post here and be a regular member and shoot the shit with some of you, and talk poker casually if that's cool, but if not then just ban me, and Ill get rid of this site in my favorites.

I look at you as a buddy, and someone I have great respect for , and someone I hope to cross path's with again in my life.. but if poker talk and strat is going to come between our friendship (like always), then I would rather not talk poker with you anymore, because I value our friendship.

-Smoke
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:52 pm

That is all good and fine, but when I'm 30 tabling I am sorry but I don't have time to address your issue of whether jto is an open from mp.

With all the time you have put in the game, and all the people that have helped you, you need to recognize the simple fact that you are missing the very fundamentals of the game.

You need to excuse my attidude, its just that I do not have time to address your everday questions on different opening ranges:

Do I open JTo from MP?
Do I still with J8o from the button?
How many bbs do I open KQo utg?
Whats my steal range from the Cu with 40bs?

And so on, when 365 daily questions can be answered with the same shove chart.

Should I have to waste my thinking time on 30 tables, to answer a question everyday that could have been answered with one chart years and years ago?


Are you really being logical in your answer, or are you constantly resisting learning the 1 thing that will make you a good poker player?

Are you going to tell me that your poker is good but you don't know what hands to open?

You get this thread, because I don't have time for you otherwise. If you want to finish one topic and learn opening ranges then you will always have this thread to answer your questions.

If you want to resist any REAL help that I give you, then please don't talk about my delivery.

Or rewatch return of the jedi.
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:46 pm

this is what I mean.

why is your time more valuable than anyone else's? i was mass tabling as well at the time, and didn't want one of your long winded drawn out lectures, that eventually gets to no point at all.

I asked about opening JTo utg in a 6 max mtt.. a quick yes or no is fine, or even a "hey, im mass tabling, can we talk about this later?" would have been cool, instead of the shit that started spewing out of your mouth that no one on this earth could comprehend.

I don't want to argue, nor get on your bad side.

Lets just leave it be.

Ban me if you want, or let me be a member of your community here, I dont really give a shit.

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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:01 pm



Smoker.B. wrote:this is what I mean.

why is your time more valuable than anyone else's?
By value we are talking about our hourly win rate. Mine is more valuable because it is higher. This is what you don't understand. You don't value your time enough to learn the first step in poker: Opening Ranges. Therefore you don't acknowledge how valuable my time is and what it is worth to me to waste talking to someone who isn't listening. Understand what ever you value your 'poker time' as...add a zero to mine.

i was mass tabling as well at the time, and didn't want one of your long winded drawn out lectures,
IC. Are you saying that you didn't appreciate me wasting your time. Do I really have to point out to you that this is the very thing I have been asking you not to do to me?

that eventually gets to no point at all.
is there really no point at all or is the point that you never listen long enough to get the point? Is that confusing too you, cause I'll making it clearer: learn your opening ranges!!!!

I asked about opening JTo utg in a 6 max mtt.. a quick yes or no is fine, or even a "hey, im mass tabling, can we talk about this later?" would have been cool, instead of the shit that started spewing out of your mouth
You know what would be cooler if you never had to ask me an opening range question again, instead of me constantly having to answer your opening range questions every days for years. Who is wasting who's time with such simple questions?

that no one on this earth could comprehend.
No like many people understand and its really not that hard: opening ranges.

I don't want to argue, nor get on your bad side.

Lets just leave it be.

Ban me if you want, or let me be a member of your community here, I dont really give a shit.

Yes I realize you have given two options and ignored the 3rd which is to learn your opening theory.
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:13 pm

lol your hourly?

haha, u make like 3 cents a game, and ur backed, so u really wanna talk about money?

why did u just have to turn all this about money? u were always the last person I thought who would do that. Does money make a human being who they are? does it determine how much we should respect them?

also, you have ZERO idea about the stakes im playing these days.. if u knew, you would know how fucking dumb your comment was.

Before this gets further, just ban me, or I can just go, I really dont have the time or need to listen to you, and your non sense any more.

just like those guys on PFC, im completely sick of your crap.



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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:46 pm

Alright, lets just do this once and for all, ive said what I need to say.

go ahead joda, start with your questions, or however u wanna start this
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  AlfreD2 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:33 pm

Some posts locked and deleted, please keep all your posts here please.
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:36 pm

KK, we should go through this quick because you get upset that I don't get to a point and no one in the world can understand me.

We want to come up with the reasons for opening pre when folded to. This will help us understand what hands to open and WHY.

It's best if you talk it out yourself, because thats what our poker decisions are about, so think about what hands you open in poker, and talk about why you think you would raise them.

There are 3 main fundamental reasons, what are they do you think?
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:03 pm

JodaB. wrote:KK, we should go through this quick because you get upset that I don't get to a point and no one in the world can understand me.

We want to come up with the reasons for opening pre when folded to.  This will help us understand what hands to open and WHY.  

It's best if you talk it out yourself, because thats what our poker decisions are about, so think about what hands you open in poker, and talk about why you think you would raise them.

There are 3 main fundamental reasons, what are they do you think?

hand strength, position, and???
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:06 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:

hand strength, position, and???
Ah yes these are thing we would consider but I want to start at the root before that.

What are we looking for when we have a 'hand'? Or better asked what are we trying to accomplish?

I think that once we go through this you will realize that many many people, even good players, have troubles asking this question, so don't worry if you aren't nailing all my questions.

Part of the way I ask is to help you really learn to think about your poker.

What is it we want when we raise?
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:11 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:

hand strength, position, and???
Ah yes these are thing we would consider but I want to start at the root before that.

What are we looking for when we have a 'hand'?  Or better asked what are we trying to accomplish?

I think that once we go through this you will realize that many many people, even good players, have troubles asking this question, so don't worry if you aren't nailing all my questions.

Part of the way I ask is to help you really learn to think about your poker.

What is it we want when we raise?

first, lets look at these 2 handsome as fuck guys



second of all, we want worse hands to call?
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:20 pm

haha!

ok worse hands to call. That makes sense, lets get a little more specific.


What if I have 72o of on the button, and I feel that i should open (lets say I am correct). There are no worse hands to call....why might i raise?
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:22 pm

JodaB. wrote:haha!

ok worse hands to call.  That makes sense, lets get a little more specific.


What if I have 72o of on the button, and I feel that i should open (lets say I am correct).  There are no worse hands to call....why might i raise?

we would raise for position

(which i mentioned in the previous post)
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:24 pm

[quote="Smoker.B."]
JodaB. wrote:

we would raise for position

(which i mentioned in the previous post)
so you are saying 'the reason we raise 72o from the button is: "to get position"?'
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:39 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:

we would raise for position

(which i mentioned in the previous post)

no, this is what i said.
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:45 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:

we would raise for position

(which i mentioned in the previous post)

no, this is what i said.
yes we might raise becasue we are in position but we don't raise 'for position'

We raise 72o from button:

A) for fun
B) to look cool
C) to pick up the blinds

?Wink 
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:49 pm

C!


Last edited by Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : first instinct was all of the above lolz)
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:51 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:C!
fuck your good!

You forgot your favorite saying your supposed to say we raise for chips...and then I say chips? and you say "no!!! EV!!!!!!!!!"

so its def we raise because its +ev but why?

Stealing is one reason

But what if we are utg and we know that we don't pick up the blinds often enough to steal so we can't open 72o of but we can open AA?

So it is we open AA:

a) to steal
b) because we are luckers
c) to raise/get it in
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:54 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:C!
fuck your good!

You forgot your favorite saying your supposed to say we raise for chips...and then I say chips? and you say "no!!! EV!!!!!!!!!"

so its def we raise because its +ev but why?

Stealing is one reason

But what if we are utg and we know that we don't pick up the blinds often enough to steal so we can't open 72o of but we can open AA?

So it is we open AA:

a) to steal
b) because we are luckers
c) to raise/get it in

B and C!
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:07 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:

B and C!
I'll pretend you mean just c, becasue we've been at this for years and we want to hurry and move on to the more interesting stuff.

So we raise 1) to steal 2) to get it in

But lets say we are on the button with JTo, and the bb is a real loose player and will flat 100% and never fold.

We can't 'raise to get it in' and we can't 'steal' because they never fold.

but i claim jto is +ev in that spot....

so where/when might the ev come from?
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:24 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:

B and C!
I'll pretend you mean just c, becasue we've been at this for years and we want to hurry and move on to the more interesting stuff.

So we raise 1) to steal 2) to get it in

But lets say we are on the button with JTo, and the bb is a real loose player and will flat 100% and never fold.

We can't 'raise to get it in' and we can't 'steal' because they never fold.

but i claim jto is +ev in that spot....

so where/when might the ev come from?

the EV comes from being in position and crushing his range? jto flops betr than 84s
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:29 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:
the EV comes from being in position and crushing his range? jto flops betr than 84s
ahhh thats it, post flop. We gain post in that spot, who knows exactly how doesn't matter but we can put it into one lump

Why do we raise?

1) to steal
2) to get it in
3) to gain post flop.


I realize I have a roundabout way of asking, and you aren't supposed to get it right the first time. It's best to get used to being wrong, and then learn the reason why you are wrong and learn what is right.


So anytime you open you should be able to answer which of the 3 you are raising for and sometimes its a combination of 2 or 3 of them.

We might now either look at 1 spot that you post (preferably early game no antes) or go straight into our preflop ranges and look at where they come from (which of the 3 reasons etc.)?

up to you if you can find a hand. ( I am off to teach class soon will be back later.
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:28 pm

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.2 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds 25 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

BB (t10,873)
smoker.B. (UTG) (t11,087)
UTG+1 (t4,270)
MP1 (t740)
MP2 (t11,090)
MP3 (t3,000)
CO (t4,614)
Button (t16,774)
SB (t6,022)

smoker.B.'s M: 21.12

Preflop: smoker.B. is UTG with Q, K
smoker.B. raises to t420, 4 folds, CO calls t420, 2 folds, BB calls t220

Flop: (t1,585) A, Q, 5 (3 players)
BB checks, smoker.B. bets t700, 2 folds

Total pot: t1,585

Results below:
Spoiler:

smoker.B. didn't show Q, K.

Here is a hand. Thoughts?
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:12 am

Smoker.B. wrote:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.2 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds 25 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

BB (t10,873)
smoker.B. (UTG) (t11,087)
UTG+1 (t4,270)
MP1 (t740)
MP2 (t11,090)
MP3 (t3,000)
CO (t4,614)
Button (t16,774)
SB (t6,022)

smoker.B.'s M: 21.12

Preflop: smoker.B. is UTG with Q, K
smoker.B. raises to t420, 4 folds, CO calls t420, 2 folds, BB calls t220
[/spoiler]

Here is a hand. Thoughts?
good example to start, lets hear your thoughts.  What is the reasons(s) of the 3 we discussed that you raised here (its possible its for more than one)?

What is your range pre here (don't worry if you aren't sure we just need a place to start)?
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Re: Smoke: opening ranges

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