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Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:47 pm

www.pokerforum.ca/f53/i-know-what-do-but-dont-do-30818/

First of all sorry for the long post.
Never, long posts are where it is at.

I call this the chess observer scenario. I know how all the pieces move and I know to think a few moves ahead. When I watch two people play chess, I can see who needs to do what, and I can see 3-5 moves ahead for each player. When I play chess, I can't see 1 move ahead and end up playing one move at a time.
I call this the uneducated observer.  We can work on what I mean but that, but someone with very accessible solid fundamentals will not have to worry about solving this issue.  Also we could call this the NHL principle in which fans regularly underestimate how hard players have it in real life.


On to poker. I know the game to a certain extent, I know strategy and I know patience required. When I'm watching poker, or reading up on hand histories, I feel like I have a good understanding of the game and what's involved. But... when I play myself, be it in cash or tournament, online or live, it all goes out the window. I only think about some basics like bet size and position. My patience goes out the window, I'm always trying to make plays for the sake of making plays and I tilt way too easily.
Patient and tilt directly correlate to the level of our understanding of the game.  For instance its really hard to lose your patience so much that you call an all in on the river with air, when we KNOW its wrong its an easy fold.   Our goal is to understand the game so well our patience is no longer an issue.

This has been going on for a while, I would say well over a year. Lately in my monthly league games, I've been one of the first 5 players out so far this year except for 2. In the last game, we played superstack with 10k starting chips and 25/50 blinds @ 15 min intervals. I was out by the 3rd blind level.
You have to dissacociate from this thinking if you are to play poker.  In poker mtts we play 2,000 mtts and hope to win one or two and final table a handful of time.  In all practical understanding we have zero ability to control when we bust a tourney.  You have to understand even a crusher like BTP frequently busts in the first few levels.  The difference is they walk away not think 'how could I have played so I am still in the tourney' but instead 'I wonder when I will eventually hit a final table'


A couple of hands which lead to my demise:

(1) Villain is a decent player, semi-tight, not very aggro or passive IMO. Villain never 3bets preflop. I'm LP, AJo, 25/50, raise pf to 150, all fold except BB who calls. Flop comes 9910. He bets 150, I raise to 600. He thinks a bit and calls. Turn is a low blank, he checks, I check. River, another blank, he bets 800 I fold. I figure that he's got me beat when he calls my flop raise with either a PP, A10, or even AK or AQ hence my check on the turn and fold to his river bet.
The raise seems a little big since its a bluff you might want to give yourself a better price.  The other issue is that it is a hit or miss board and if your opponent hit they are not folding, if they missed you might want to flat because Ace high is good.

(2) Few hands later. Villain is loose aggro, tanks for every decision. He's in MP, i'm to his left. He calls pre flop, I raise to 3x with Ks9s, folds around to him and he calls. Flop comes AK8 rainbow. He checks, I bet half the pot, he min raises, I re-raise 3x his total bet, he calls. Turn is a blank, he bets half the pot, I fold.

My thoughts, I c-bet when he checks the flop, he check raises me to rep the ace, I re-raise to find out if he really has it, he calls so I figure he has it. Against most other players I would have folded to the check raise.
We need to define our cbets as bluff or value, on this board you can't really bet K9 for value (no worse will call), so you are better off considering checking it back I think.

(3) Blinds now at 50/100, UTG with 67 suited, I call, folded all the way to the BB who is the same villain as last hand who checks. Flop comes 653 rainbow. He bets 100, I raise to 300, he calls. Turn J, he checks, I bet 400, he calls. River is a 9, he leads out $1700. Looks like a steal, could be a value bet, I tank for a while and call. Terrible I know. He shows 6 3.
open limping is a huge leak for you, and so is playing 67suited utg. Your range is way to wide here and you should be thinking about folding kjo and qjs without antes at least. With antes we can fold t9s and play jts at our widest I think.



(4) I lost a little here and there, ended up with <3k, at 75/150 the same villain raises 3x, I have 910o and shove, he calls (still tanks) with AQ and flops 2 pair.
this is a fundamental leak in shove/fold poker. It's a great place to start for you to improve your game. Sometimes its helpful for an experienced online player to point out our 'next step' in the process of learning. I think yours is here.

---

The first two hands I think I'm beat and give it up. I think there's nothing wrong with that, but losing both hands early in the tournament get me wound up to try to win back my losings --> tilt. By the third hand I'm tilted and making bad plays, and the last hand I'm overboard.
Again this isn't part of what poker is, the best player frequently lose their chips down to 1bbs and by stroke of chance for the day (mixed with good play over a year), they once in awhile luckbox back into the game.  They to have no control over the flips, but only playing each spot slightly better than the average player and hope things work out.


This led to my demise in the WSOP in Vancouver last year as well. I played super tight for the first 1.5 hours, mucking hands like A10 suited in early position, or KQ in late position. I finally got AA in the dealer spot, loose aggro player who has been in almost every hand and shipping all his chips away in the SB calls my pf raise with 55 and hits a set. We both end up all in and I'm down to half stack. I win a small pot a few hands later with AQ when I flopped an A. Few hands after that I lost about 1/3 my stack with A10 suited when someone made a hero call with K4 on the river. Then I lost a pot with Q9 suited with terrible play and the downward spiral continued.
Ats folding in ep is not super tight be just std for a tag player.  folding kq in late position is waay to tight and since you are going to blind down more than average you are going to feel like AA gets cracked too often.


I have essentially told myself that I can never play profitable poker because I'm too emotional. I've been playing since the Moneymaker boom and still haven't been able to correct these tendencies. I normally have about $50-200 on Pokerstars which constantly fluctuates but can't ever keep it over $250. Once I lose a BI, I tend to lose 2 or 3 more within 24 hours.
Understanding our emotional response to the game is the key to success, but we don't fix it by harnessing our emotions.  We fix it by admitting we have more to learn, and then letting our emotions subside and realize poker is about skill and variance.

TL;DR: I know the game decently well but can't execute. I tilt easy and can't seem to get it under control.
I think you are better off if someone better than you shows you a whole bunch of things that you don't know about the game.  At first its amazing, then quickly daunting, but for some it breathes new life because they realize they have a fighting chance and something tangible other than tilt to blame their bad beats on.

Advice?
begin to believe that you don't even know 1% of the amount of skill and strategy that is out there.


Last edited by JodaB. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: www.pokerforum.ca/f53/i-know-what-do-but-dont-do-30818/

Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:06 pm

Just wanted to add that tilt is really a function of our winrate. If we are always winning we don't tilt, if we are not having good success we tilt.

It isn't what player think, and a function of ability to control tilt.

If someone here feels like it they can pm tony the link to this thread.
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Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:08 pm

Ok I will

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Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:10 pm

He's going to go bonkers next game when he realizes that he hasn't figured out how to play.

Their advice always made me bonkers when they didn't explained the root of the cause.

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Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:18 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:He's going to go  bonkers next game when he realizes that he hasn't figured out how to play.

Their advice always made me bonkers when they didn't explained the root of the cause.
There has been an unfortunate myth created in this game in thinking that helping rec players will ruin profits for the pros.

But in reality its only the mediocre players that feel that way, and the same players give bad advice (I'm not talk about about certain posters because there is good advice to by some). Theses players never know that there is better strat talk to be had.

I will work to change this as I think its good for the game if people tilt less and study/learn more.
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Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:20 pm

I remember you saying this not to long ago, this is why I am PMing him. your theory about helping others is the nuts!!

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Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:22 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:I remember you saying this not to long ago, this is why I am PMing him. your theory about helping others is the nuts!!
ya reminds me of this post http://www.pokerforum.ca/f53/different-kind-strategy-29013/

I wonder if wetts maybe never saw it.
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Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:27 pm

meh edited post, knew I missed a hand:

(4) I lost a little here and there, ended up with <3k, at 75/150 the same villain raises 3x, I have 910o and shove, he calls (still tanks) with AQ and flops 2 pair.[/quote]
this is a fundamental leak in shove/fold poker. It's a great place to start for you to improve your game. Sometimes its helpful for an experienced online player to point out our 'next step' in the process of learning. I think yours is here.
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Post  tonychanman on Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:35 pm

Hey thanks for the analysis.  I'm always looking to improve and your comments are invaluable.


I call this the uneducated observer.  We can work on what I mean but that, but someone with very accessible solid fundamentals will not have to worry about solving this issue.  Also we could call this the NHL principle in which fans regularly underestimate how hard players have it in real life.

I agree with this with the caveat that I think I know the game better than the average rec player, but just barely.  I'm fully aware that there's a lot about the game I don't know and have yet to learn.


Patient and tilt directly correlate to the level of our understanding of the game.  For instance its really hard to lose your patience so much that you call an all in on the river with air, when we KNOW its wrong its an easy fold.   Our goal is to understand the game so well our patience is no longer an issue.

Great point.  I can see that being the case, it probably takes a lot of hands though to realize what's the right and wrong play intuitively, and when I'm tilted, it can lead me to choose the wrong play because I'm frustrated.  You're totally right though that as I understand the game better, that patience should come as a result.


You have to dissacociate from this thinking if you are to play poker.  In poker mtts we play 2,000 mtts and hope to win one or two and final table a handful of time.  In all practical understanding we have zero ability to control when we bust a tourney.  You have to understand even a crusher like BTP frequently busts in the first few levels.  The difference is they walk away not think 'how could I have played so I am still in the tourney' but instead 'I wonder when I will eventually hit a final table'

In my case, we play our league poker once a month with <50 players.  I would assume that those numbers are meant for online MTTs with hundres/thousands of players.  In a pool of <50 players, I binked my first tournament and haven't since, that was nearly 2 years ago.  Last year I had many deep runs and cashed the last 5 games, but this year my results have been poor and I'm quite sure it's due to bad play and not just running bad.  


The raise seems a little big since its a bluff you might want to give yourself a better price.  The other issue is that it is a hit or miss board and if your opponent hit they are not folding, if they missed you might want to flat because Ace high is good.

Got it.  The consensus seems to be that I raised too much and it was unnecessary for hands 1, 2 & 3.


open limping is a huge leak for you, and so is playing 67suited utg.  Your range is way to wide here and you should be thinking about folding kjo and qjs  without antes at least.  With antes we can fold t9s and play jts at our widest I think.

I normally don't do this.  I'm quite sure this was the early stages of my tilting, I felt like I needed to get back some chips and a mid suited connector (if it hit) could get me back in the game.  I normally fold low suited connectors in general, even in late position.  As well, I rarely just call UTG.  This was a big misplay which led to a massive hit to my chipstack.


this is a fundamental leak in shove/fold poker.  It's a great place to start for you to improve your game. Sometimes its helpful for an experienced online player to point out our 'next step' in the process of learning.  I think yours is here.

Agreed.  At this point I was on full tilt and made a bad move.  


Ats folding in ep is not super tight be just std for a tag player.  folding kq in late position is waay to tight and since you are going to blind down more than average you are going to feel like AA gets cracked too often.

At this point in the tournament, we were still within the first 3 levels.  I wasn't afraid of getting blinded down at all which is why I was playing so tight.  I'd have to admit I was nervous playing in my first WSOP even and in such a large field.  Other than my small poker league, I rarely play any live poker.


Understanding our emotional response to the game is the key to success, but we don't fix it by harnessing our emotions.  We fix it by admitting we have more to learn, and then letting our emotions subside and realize poker is about skill and variance.

Thank you, I think this is something I need to continue to tell myself.  What really puts me over the edge though, is when I think I have the skill but don't properly apply it which leads to losing.  But I guess the only way to fix that is with some self control and learn to apply my knowledge.


begin to believe that you don't even know 1% of the amount of skill and strategy that is out there.

I will.  Thanks again.

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Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:01 pm



tonychanman wrote:Hey thanks for the analysis.  I'm always looking to improve and your comments are invaluable.
Always willing to give my opinion to those who are willing to learn. Welcome Smile


I agree with this with the caveat that I think I know the game better than the average rec player, but just barely.  I'm fully aware that there's a lot about the game I don't know and have yet to learn.
I would wager you are correct by what I know of your and your game. But we need to know that when you take rake out of the prize pool you have to be better than average just to begin profit. Making fun money beyond that takes even more work. But rest assured you are on the + side of the line, the trick is to raise that bar as high as possible, not to pray your cards hold like most think.



Great point.  I can see that being the case, it probably takes a lot of hands though to realize what's the right and wrong play intuitively, and when I'm tilted, it can lead me to choose the wrong play because I'm frustrated.  You're totally right though that as I understand the game better, that patience should come as a result.
Yes and its not like I'm a genious for saying it, but we get emotionally attached to our results and forget this simple fact. I learned this first hand through 70,000 mttsngs, gets kinda silly when you feel you are awesome when you win and feel you played bad when you lose over that sample. Most of the time I was a decent play just riding the real variance of the game. But you don't need to play 70k games to understand this, I did it for you all Wink


In my case, we play our league poker once a month with <50 players.  I would assume that those numbers are meant for online MTTs with hundres/thousands of players.  In a pool of <50 players, I binked my first tournament and haven't since, that was nearly 2 years ago.  Last year I had many deep runs and cashed the last 5 games, but this year my results have been poor and I'm quite sure it's due to bad play and not just running bad.  
Yes that is the issue. You binked early and got a false feel for how easy the variance it. Betrthanphil had an entire losing year last year I think and hes one of the best mtt players in the world, certainly in Canada. But you are bound to win more at lower stakes with lower entrants, its just something to help the perspective though.



Got it.  The consensus seems to be that I raised too much and it was unnecessary for hands 1, 2 & 3.
Yes I try to give feedback in a tangible quantifiable form so you can use it for decisions in the future, rather than 'raise less' because advice like that can hurt our game if its not accurate.


open limping is a huge leak for you, and so is playing 67suited utg.  Your range is way to wide here and you should be thinking about folding kjo and qjs  without antes at least.  With antes we can fold t9s and play jts at our widest I think.

I normally don't do this.  I'm quite sure this was the early stages of my tilting, I felt like I needed to get back some chips and a mid suited connector (if it hit) could get me back in the game.  I normally fold low suited connectors in general, even in late position.  As well, I rarely just call UTG.  This was a big misplay which led to a massive hit to my chipstack.
Ya I get it. You tricked yourself (part because of tilt) by thinking you can win chips, but as soon as you limp or play 67s utg, you may win chips but you win less tournaments.

As a side note the reason it is such a big mistake is because it implies that you are also limping in every other position, and it implies since you play 67s that you are also playing 98s JTs and all suited broadway that way as well. So I can read into the one play that you are leaking a lot of money.

If you always make that mistake then we can take what I pointed out and multiply it by the % that you do it and you will still have a big leak that you can instantly fix by tightened your preflop range and never open limping.


Agreed.  At this point I was on full tilt and made a bad move.  
It happens to the best of them.


Thank you, I think this is something I need to continue to tell myself.  What really puts me over the edge though, is when I think I have the skill but don't properly apply it which leads to losing.  But I guess the only way to fix that is with some self control and learn to apply my knowledge.
Yes and to be clear there is an emotional side and plenty to talk about, but we should focus on fixing our biggest leaks, and learning how big the game really is before we tackle the complex mind stuff.


I will.  Thanks again.
No worries, feel free to browse and ask questions. Feel free to read or ignore any of my off topic stuff. Philli has his own thread to moderate. Fedstanza/smoke, is buddy of mine i have taken some extreme measure with to quell some pointless posting but also to specially work on his strat game.

So ignoring those special circumstances you'll find me quite helpful I think. Just remember I am a different type of facilitator and I help people in their own way. You can expect more straight forward discussion from me with you than you will read with others.

Feel free to invite others...or just simply say hi/bye.

no worries.

Gl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post  tonychanman on Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:37 pm

Ya I get it. You tricked yourself (part because of tilt) by thinking you can win chips, but as soon as you limp or play 67s utg, you may win chips but you win less tournaments.

As a side note the reason it is such a big mistake is because it implies that you are also limping in every other position, and it implies since you play 67s that you are also playing 98s JTs and all suited broadway that way as well. So I can read into the one play that you are leaking a lot of money.

Yep, this is not a good play on my part. This was more of a one off though since I nearly never limp pre-flop. My only pre-flop limps are mid to small pp in early & mid position, or J10 suited or higher in late position, even then I usually raise. Open limping is something I can say I never do, except for some reason in that case. But you are right, that it's a leak and needs to be eliminated. If not, I do it once here, once there, as rare as it is over X number of hands, it becomes a leak.

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Post  JodaB. on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:10 pm

tonychanman wrote:

Yep, this is not a good play on my part.  This was more of a one off though since I nearly never limp pre-flop.
ya it wouldn't be quite as much of a leak then it looks then.


 My only pre-flop limps are mid to small pp in early & mid position, or J10 suited or higher in late position, even then I usually raise
yes def raise 100% vs. limp, so much so I would rather raise with 72o in these spots than to just limp. Flatting behind of course is a different sory.


 Open limping is something I can say I never do, except for some reason in that case.  But you are right, that it's a leak and needs to be eliminated.  If not, I do it once here, once there, as rare as it is over X number of hands, it becomes a leak.
Ya so its not as bad as it seems, nonetheless its generally the quickest easiest leak to fix (always raise), and a good way to begin getting into the head of a good tight aggressive player, which helps raise our own game and learn to deal with more advanced players.
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