Hand progression for ranges

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Hand progression for ranges

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:23 pm

I'm still on my mini break for the quitting smoking thing. Not going so well at the moment but I'm going longer and longer without a smoke.

I'm can't stop thinking about ranges, honestly I am obsessing about it!!! I noticed a problem with the way I'm creating ranges, I don't know how to properly add hands into a range. For instance if I see a player calling with K9o we can use a slider range to create a calling range, but I have noticed poker stove doesn't spew an accurate hand range.

My question to u, is how do I go about putting hands in order that they should be added without using the slider.?

So I want to do something like this AA KK QQ AKs AK JJ TT AQs AJs AQ.... All the way to the bottom of the deck, so I can add the appropriate hands into a range.


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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:51 am

Its a good question and shows you are starting to think deeper about the game. Lemme straighten some of it out though because you are somewhat mixing some thoughts together.

First we open our ranges for different reasons in different spots. Thats is, shoving and opening for instance can be different in this regard. We also might decide we are widening our ranges to pick up chips post flop, perhaps because villain will fold so much post, or maybe because they will check call to showdown etc.

So there are many reasons to adjust our ranges and therefore many different types of ranges we will adjust too.

In genearl though on thing we can do is yes use the stove slider to get a decent idea of what hand rankings are like. The other thing that is quite useful is to go along with what Nash generally gives. The nash ranges are in order and get quite easy to remember as we get used to shoving ranges and calling ranges.

Heres the thing, stove I think compares each hand to a random, or maybe its to Aces can't quite remember. Nash sets you up with hands that are in order vs your opponents Nash ranges. So the closer your opponent plays to Nash, the more accurate that would be to widen your hands vs how Nash ranks them. This breaks down (or might break down) the further your opponent deviates from optimal poker. But by the time your opponent is so off that it really makes no sense to use the Nash ranges, they'll be so bad that constructing ranges vs them is easy.

Perhaps villain flats pre, and check calls all streets and never folds, but rarely raises (maybe only with the nuts). Vs this person we want all aces most kings and most pairs, because they often win at showdown vs very weak ranges. We might not want to play hands like 67s even though they are good postflop hands, because we only have 7 high often at showdown.

So really you'll get the hang of it as we go into example a little more in depth.

I'll separate this post from my next point on where you should concentrate your learning now....
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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:04 am

The place you are at now is notes. I know we touched on it before but now that you have a really strong preflop construct, you now understand what a 'prelop mistake' is. Notes are not what people really think they. Vekked taught me something amazing about notes that I still make more and more money everyday because of his one lesson, and you will understand why as I explain it.

Most people think notes are only good if we see the player again, and since we rarely get into the same spots vs the same opponents (especially rec players we never see again), that they aren't really that useful. This as you will see, is the end of such a players career, because they have ceased the next stage of their poker learning which is 2nd level thinking. If they stop growing eventually the field they are profitable in will get better and surpass them, and they will no longer beat the level that they used to.

Notes teach us to stop thinking only in terms of our own hand and begin to train us to think about our opponents ranges and strategies. Only then can we begin to learn to really exploit other peoples play.

Notes are a four fold extraction. First we see what a person does with X hand, 2nd we see what they DON'T do with that same hand. So if a person open limps AA, we also learn that they don't have AA when they raise.

We also learn how to adjust our own ranges to exploit there play, both vs their open limp and vs there raise.

We begin to ask questions like how can I exploit that mistake? What kind of information can I extract from such a play? What other mistakes is the opponent likely to make? How might a player exploit me for making such a mistake (perhaps they won't). How big is a such a mistake?

Notes is really the beginning of learning poker, and we are talking about purposeful notes. This means that we have seen a player deviate from a proper TAG ABC strategy, and we have a certain counter strategy in mind. If such a play is so standard that we would not choose to adjust our game, or in other words, if our standard assumptions on this player already fall inline with the notes then such a note is redundant and not useful.

So the best thing for you to do when you come back, is to 1 table at least some of the time and start taking as many notes as you can, even at first noting every single street on every showdown from every player. Its really the only way to become an effective note taker is to work on your A game (single table) and then you can eventually work up in tables again.

Best thing you could do is do a review session with me on skype, and we'll go over a whole bunch of spots where we can take notes on players and talk about how we would adjust our ranges to exploit there mistakes. As soon as I did this with V I realized that I had only just begin to understand what poker is.

The bonus about this is you begin to understand when you are making correct play and adjustments. You start to get excited about learning this little details about players and you stop worry that AA got beat by Ak all preflop. Tilt goes down while simultaneously your roi goes up.

So the power of notes is huge not for the reason most players think. That actual moment that you exploit a player because of a previous note is a great feeling too, especially cause you realize just random text actually just made you money. But really its just a bonus.

Then you will also begin to understand the answer to your question on what hands to add as adjustments

< ^ ^ >
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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:51 am

There are some really, really great points in those two posts Nick.

I would love to be a part of a Skype review for note taking. Please let me know when you plan on doing this...
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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:23 pm

REEBS77 wrote:There are some really, really great points in those two posts Nick.

I would love to be a part of a Skype review for note taking.  Please let me know when you plan on doing this...
i live it buddy, pick a time and hit me up, ill do it up with ya. But I'm worried youre gonna like it...
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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:46 pm

Hah, yeah you are probably right!
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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:14 pm

Can we find a time all three of us can do this together? it would be very beneficial to me to hear some more advance talk about notes. And maybe beneficial for If I have a question teens may not think of.

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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  JodaB. on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:32 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:....If I have a question teens may not think of.
Teen questions are fine and will be enough im sure.
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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:05 pm

Shocked lol! afro how the hell is reebs not in my phones dictionary

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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:20 pm

Ryan u prob have the craziest schedule so u pick the time .... I'm usually on all weekend except Saturday, and a few nights throughout the week after 6pm.
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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:49 pm

If joda is available on this Sunday, we can do it anytime after 2pm our time. pick a time and i'll be there

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Re: Hand progression for ranges

Post  JodaB. on Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:32 am

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:If joda is available on this Sunday, we can do it anytime after 2pm our time. pick a time and i'll be there
ya we can tentatively plan. I'll have a lot of free time over the next 10 or so days, but can't plan it cause i have so much to do with no control over the schedule.

but if you are both around and decide you have time, and give me a lil shout on skype then i might just be around etc.
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