BTN open with shorty in bb

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BTN open with shorty in bb

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:05 am

PokerStars Hand #104633194496: Tournament #793415634, $2.28+$0.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XX (3000/6000) - 2013/09/25 18:17:36 ET
Table '793415634 11' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: chaonima45 (140386 in chips)
Seat 5: kimlet (20732 in chips)
Seat 7: goyorzo (29284 in chips)
Seat 8: ryan1111 (79598 in chips)
chaonima45: posts the ante 600
kimlet: posts the ante 600
goyorzo: posts the ante 600
ryan1111: posts the ante 600
chaonima45: posts small blind 3000
kimlet: posts big blind 6000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ryan1111 [Js 8d]
goyorzo: folds
ryan1111: raises 6000 to 12000
chaonima45: folds
kimlet: raises 8132 to 20132 and is all-in
ryan1111: calls 8132
*** FLOP *** [8s Kc 6h]
*** TURN *** [8s Kc 6h] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [8s Kc 6h Ac] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
kimlet: shows [7d 7s] (a pair of Sevens)
ryan1111: shows [Js 8d] (a pair of Eights)
ryan1111 collected 45664 from pot
kimlet finished the tournament in 4th place and received $30.36.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 45664 | Rake 0
Board [8s Kc 6h Ac 3c]
Seat 1: chaonima45 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: kimlet (big blind) showed [7d 7s] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 7: goyorzo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: ryan1111 (button) showed [Js 8d] and won (45664) with a pair of Eights


During the review you said I should tighten up my BTN opens a bit with a shorty in the mix. This hand here is to loose according to you... I wanted to see why you said to adjust from ATC to about a 40% range, so I reviewed the hand in HR and boom there's the range you gave me. I adjusted their ranges to more realistic ranges, and saw I could only open up to maybe a 60% range and that's if the big stack or both plrs are really bad plr(s).

so it makes sense to not open up the range you told me, since almost always this late in the tourney we're going to encounter plrs that have some clue of whats going on...there will be a few times where we get a bad plr here, but for the amount of times we do, it doesn't justify changing this range.

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Re: BTN open with shorty in bb

Post  JodaB. on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:23 pm



During the review you said I should tighten up my BTN opens a bit with a shorty in the mix. This hand here is to loose according to you...
if this is the hand we reviewed I think i was saying this if the bb never folds?  Cause I dont' tighten up just because there are shorties, everyone else in the field does.  I play the opposite.

so it makes sense to not open up the range you told me, since almost always this late in the tourney we're going to encounter plrs that have some clue of whats going on...
whoa whoa whoaaaaaa!!!!!!  We don't say things like that I would think Wink Firstly yes plenty of bad players make it late in mttsngs (and mtts).  Also we will have notes to know these things about each player.  And playing micros, thats how we know everyone is generally bad, but we want to be more specific than that.

there will be a few times where we get a bad plr here, but for the amount of times we do, it doesn't justify changing this range.
Thats true, general is decent, but we should look at the players habits if we can.

if this bb is calling most hands I will tighten but if they are looking at there cards and folding then I will open super wide.  

I'm thinking we were feeling they were calling a lot after posting pre and then you just need hands with decent sd value, or equity.
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Re: BTN open with shorty in bb

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:33 am

Now I'm thinking i got this hand mixed up with another hand! I know we reviewed a hand near the final table bubble and one at the final table, Both had a shorty in the mix, both had ICM implications involved ... this may be the hand I was thinking of

PokerStars Hand #104632175073: Tournament #793415634, $2.28+$0.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (1250/2500) - 2013/09/25 17:53:20 ET
Table '793415634 16' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: zikas73 (11440 in chips)
Seat 3: Giani23 (28906 in chips)
Seat 5: kimlet (23429 in chips)
Seat 8: edenaarling (22658 in chips)
Seat 9: ryan1111 (12912 in chips)
zikas73: posts the ante 250
Giani23: posts the ante 250
kimlet: posts the ante 250
edenaarling: posts the ante 250
ryan1111: posts the ante 250
zikas73: posts small blind 1250
Giani23: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ryan1111 [3s 6d]
kimlet: folds
Giani23 said, "(y)"
edenaarling: folds
ryan1111: raises 10162 to 12662 and is all-in
zikas73: folds
Giani23: folds
Uncalled bet (10162) returned to ryan1111
ryan1111 collected 7500 from pot

You made a point of how icm doesn't like bottom of the deck and how you're always going to showdown with the nuts in spots like this. you also referred to shoving a range like this 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K5o+,Q7o+,J9o+ is better than shipping ATC cause of $ev comes into play. i really dunno now, since i have the the hand question mixed up.My bad.

From now on when we do a review I'm going to keep a note pad ready so I can note the hand discussed for when I want to break it down further.


As for my statement of less bad plr make it through. you're right, I should of thought of it a little more before typing it all out.. I will not make statements like again..

I'm going to continue focusing on the other stuff we went over last session, as well as all the other stuff you have made me focus on before that. I'll be back with some HH posts tomorrow night after work, I should get 4 or 5 games in.






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Re: BTN open with shorty in bb

Post  JodaB. on Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:35 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Now I'm thinking i got this hand mixed up with another hand! I know we reviewed a hand near the final table bubble and one at the final table, Both had a shorty in the mix, both had ICM implications involved ... this may be the hand I was thinking of
I dunno, there isn't really anything to it other than if you don't have fold equity then you have to tighten your range.

PokerStars Hand #104632175073: Tournament #793415634, $2.28+$0.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (1250/2500) - 2013/09/25 17:53:20 ET
Table '793415634 16' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: zikas73 (11440 in chips)
Seat 3: Giani23 (28906 in chips)
Seat 5: kimlet (23429 in chips)
Seat 8: edenaarling (22658 in chips)
Seat 9: ryan1111 (12912 in chips)
zikas73: posts the ante 250
Giani23: posts the ante 250
kimlet: posts the ante 250
edenaarling: posts the ante 250
ryan1111: posts the ante 250
zikas73: posts small blind 1250
Giani23: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ryan1111 [3s 6d]
kimlet: folds
Giani23 said, "(y)"
edenaarling: folds
ryan1111: raises 10162 to 12662 and is all-in
zikas73: folds
Giani23: folds
Uncalled bet (10162) returned to ryan1111
ryan1111 collected 7500 from pot

You made a point of how icm doesn't like bottom of the deck and how you're always going to showdown with the nuts in spots like this. you also referred to shoving a range like this 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K5o+,Q7o+,J9o+ is better than shipping ATC cause of $ev comes into play. i really dunno now, since i have the the hand question mixed up.My bad.
No I didn't say icm doesn't like the bottom of the deck, because there are many times we are shoving atc. You are trying to make some form of a rule, but basically if ICM wants us to shove wide, we do, if tight we do.

From now on when we do a review I'm going to keep a note pad ready so I can note the hand discussed for when I want to break it down further.
always a good idea Wink


As for my statement of less bad plr make it through. you're right, I should of thought of it a little more before typing it all out.. I will not make statements like again..
Yes you will make statements like this again, for the rest of your career you will, its about how good you get at recognizing these limiting beliefs and dispelling them. I still make this mistake prob every day but I'm more sensitive to them so I catch them in others well. Whether in their speech or in their cards.

I'm going to continue focusing on the other stuff we went over last session, as well as all the other stuff you have made me focus on before that. I'll be back with some HH posts tomorrow night after work, I should get 4 or 5 games in.
Icm doesn't like forced showdowns so if know we are going to sd we will usually need a tighter range BUT thats not a rule we add to the icm calculator....its the general guess at what the calculator will give us for a range (in other words don't double adjust).

But yes this hand is too loose usually but it depends on villains calling ranges. Best for you to study icm spots too and get used to it

glgl





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