stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

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stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  AlreadyBeenVaped on Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:44 pm

BB has been very aggro. History I have with him is really just one spot at the final table where he attempted to bluff me w K high on TT24 board and gave up on T river.
Should I flat the 3b here due to ICM, or just get it as it's bvb and were 3handed.

btw payouts are:
1) $5.2k
2) $3.9k
3) $2.8k

PokerStars Hand #105039829544: Tournament #794591300, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XLIV (180000/360000) - 2013/10/04 19:36:43 ET
Table '794591300 133' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 4: NEoZloY (11457996 in chips) (32bb)
Seat 5: GEOR78 (5645976 in chips) (16bb)
Seat 7: julesdAA (9770028 in chips) (27bb)
NEoZloY: posts the ante 36000
GEOR78: posts the ante 36000
julesdAA: posts the ante 36000
julesdAA: posts small blind 180000
NEoZloY: posts big blind 360000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to julesdAA [Tc Ad]
GEOR78: folds
julesdAA: raises 440000 to 800000
NEoZloY: raises 1424100 to 2224100
julesdAA: ?
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  JodaB. on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:36 pm

I see this kinda question a lot and I think a lot of regs get icm reasoning mixed up in these spots.  I read the hh a few times to make sure I understand all the dynamics.  It seems to me if we 4bet shove here we are putting the icm pressure on villain which is exactly what we want to do.

Villain has been known to bluff but seems somewhat weak and unable to hand read, as I would think if he was to rep a k on the turn (previous hand) he should be able to rep a boat (and prob should bluff since they didn't seem to have showdown value).

If that makes sense then its good enough for me to think they could 3bet fold a lot of hands in this spot. And we have an A and a T blocker.  Without further reads I find a lot of players mistakenly 3bet/tank/fold medium strength hands like 66 and kj in these spots.

I think flatting is not a good idea because of icm, because we put ourself in tough spots where we often need a lot of equity to make a $ev call.  And we are oop vs someone we have few reads on post.

No doubt you have skill edge playing these players in position so I wouldn't voluntarily play oop, and I will usually favor the higher fold equity route anyways.

I think i might rather a pure min raise pre but I play short stack poker, and it depends if you have to balance with previous history.

Vs some players who are aggro I will often limp/shove with any stack less than you have 30bbs is a little much to do it, and it depends on how big villain 3bets as a std. (if they 3bet big limp shoving might be better). This is also why i like min raising better because the extra amount to 800,000k makes his 3bet bigger.
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  JodaB. on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:41 pm

I also missed the very first sentence.

If bb is aggro its an easy push I think. I'm surprised others are saying fold. I don't really think we can 4bet fold, doesn't seem right.

I'll put this in the icm calc and look at some ranges tho
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  AlreadyBeenVaped on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:13 pm

Thanks Nick. Yeah I think people are overlooking the fact that I said he's very aggro. In-game I 4b jammed pretty quickly/instinctively but felt really dumb after (results oriented ftw lol).

You make a good point about minraising from the sb. I think that was honestly my first or second open on him from the sb because we hadn't been shorthanded that long. Anywho, vs most players here my sizing is normally 2.5x with these stacks.

Also love the sb limp/shove move with slightly shorter stack and do it quite often.
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  JodaB. on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:18 pm

meh can't rep the hand in the calculator as easy as I thought.

What I did was put you in the bb and villain in sb with a 6x raise (essentially his 3bet) and looked at what you would 3bet shove (repping your 4bet in the op). He needs a wide range like maybe 30%. And also AQ+ 99+ for calling I'm not even sure thats accurate.

I notice now that he 3bet pretty big, I might feel thats a tell for a bigger hand, always nice to have reads on that stuff (the whole final table Rolling Eyes Razz ).

Also this is a nice spot when our image is aggro or at least not tight, because then we can be confident villain is 3betting wide.

It's often a shove for me, but it seems marginal or a fold in the icm calculator, i'm just not confident its correct so i think i'd go with my gut. I'd be surprised someone like btp raise/folded here.

If we are flatting here I think limp/flatting is better, and limp/shoving prob isn't as profitable as 4bet shoving, but its viable at like 20bbs if we dont' want to call a 3bs
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  JodaB. on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:21 pm

AlreadyBeenVaped wrote:Thanks Nick.  Yeah I think people are overlooking the fact that I said he's very aggro.  In-game I 4b jammed pretty quickly/instinctively but felt really dumb after (results oriented ftw lol).

You make a good point about minraising from the sb.  I think that was honestly my first or second open on him from the sb because we hadn't been shorthanded that long. Anywho, vs most players here my sizing is normally 2.5x with these stacks.
Ya one thing ive learned is that as stacks get bigger min raising is not always optimal. but I'd think < 30bbs bvb min raise is best. It mostly depends if your opponent will flat atc (or like 70% i forget the exact number). If they look at their cards, ill just min raise, but if it encourages very wide flats then i might adjust.

Also love the sb limp/shove move with slightly shorter stack and do it quite often.
Nice. Ya I have many tricks in trivial spots like that, i'll define them and make sure the math is correct before I pass them on though.

good to here from ya!
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  AlreadyBeenVaped on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:28 pm

Also just looked up his hud stats, his 3b stats were:
10% 3b over 417 hands with 16% 3b from the big blind
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  JodaB. on Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:00 pm

AlreadyBeenVaped wrote:Also just looked up his hud stats, his 3b stats were:
10% 3b over 417 hands with 16% 3b from the big blind
these spots are so specific its tough to get a solid read with these types of stats. Plus the sample size needs to be bigger I imagine. Def wouldn't ignore them but they aren't as accurate as notes.
I wonder if your notes department isn't lacking...
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  AlreadyBeenVaped on Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:05 pm

I have a lot of regs noted but for some reason didn't have him. I was surprised when I re-checked my hud and saw I had over 400 hands on him.

Would you ever consider a limp/call here?
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  JodaB. on Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:30 pm

AlreadyBeenVaped wrote:I have a lot of regs noted but for some reason didn't have him.  I was surprised when I re-checked my hud and saw I had over 400 hands on him.

Would you ever consider a limp/call here?
You mean to say you have notes on them or just color coding. If we spend alot of time honing notes we can pick up more spots that teach us more about how to adjust vs players, I'm finding most players how multi table have given up on the process of ntes.

I would consider limp calling vs some opponents here, but prob need some more specific reads, I don't mind min folding if we feel villains 3bet range is that tight though. But I dunno just seems like you did an easy 4bet shove.

Maybe I gotta tighten up a little with a 20bbs stack, but sometimes I find better players ignore the math here and take the fold equity.

Wish we had btp!
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  AlreadyBeenVaped on Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:17 am

JodaB. wrote:
AlreadyBeenVaped wrote:I have a lot of regs noted but for some reason didn't have him.  I was surprised when I re-checked my hud and saw I had over 400 hands on him.

Would you ever consider a limp/call here?
You mean to say you have notes on them or just color coding.  If we spend alot of time honing notes we can pick up more spots that teach us more about how to adjust vs players, I'm finding most players how multi table have given up on the process of ntes.

I would consider limp calling vs some opponents here, but prob need some more specific reads, I don't mind min folding if we feel villains 3bet range is that tight though.  But I dunno just seems like you did an easy 4bet shove.  

Maybe I gotta tighten up a little with a 20bbs stack, but sometimes I find better players ignore the math here and take the fold equity.

Wish we had btp!
I'd guesstimate 15-20-% of my color-codings have actual notes/reads so I need to work on actual note-taking tendencies.  I feel like I note bad things fish do more often.  I do however have certain colors that mean a reg is "passive/weak" or "spewy" etc

Yeah I agree, 4b shove feels right.

I'll try and get him and myself posting here more!
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Re: stars $3r 2x turb FT 3handed AT gets 3b

Post  JodaB. on Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:20 am

AlreadyBeenVaped wrote:
I'd guesstimate 15-20-% of my color-codings have actual notes/reads so I need to work on actual note-taking tendencies.  I feel like I note bad things fish do more often.  I do however have certain colors that mean a reg is "passive/weak" or "spewy" etc

Yeah I agree, 4b shove feels right.

I'll try and get him and myself posting here more!
Ya thats a good color system it seems. But notes on actual showdowns and lines villains take are super important. It teaches us how to think more about villains ranges and lines, and it teaches us how to see more and more spots. I always recommend to my students to spend some time playing 1 table and just taking notes because its the only way you'll improve note taking. V taught me that and its huge.

Yes get btp ha, he told me he doesn't want everyone to know our strat but I'd make the forum private again if thats what it took!
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