AK/AQ spot....

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AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:31 pm

This one is pretty basic but I feel like this is a trouble spot for some micro stakes players (maybe even for me), whats our plan here, with AK? AQ? AJs? What if he 3xd? or 2x?

No Limit Holdem Tournament
PokerStars
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$5.00+$0.50

Stacks:
UTG 2,850 36bb
UTG+1 10,800 135bb
MP1 5,675 71bb
MP2 2,550 32bb
CO 2,405 30bb
Hero (BTN) 2,920 37bb
SB 3,580 45bb
BB 2,220 28bb

Blinds: 40/80

Pre-Flop: (120, 8 players) Hero is BTN As Kd
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to 320, 3 folds, Hero???
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  REEBS77 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:56 pm

Assuming utg+1 is not a complete maroon, I assign him a pretty tight opening range:

66+,ATs+,KJs+,AJo+

Since villian 4x'd it, I think it weights his hands more towards the top of this range. If he 3x'd it, I wouldn't really alter his range much. If he min raised, then I would almost add a few more hands in there, like small PPs.

My math tells me that calling with the AJ hands is borderline with just pot odds, however since we are IP, we can probably still flat and outplay him sometimes postflop.

Personally, I dont like 3 betting any of these hands. Not enough equity vs his get it in range. Plus flatting AK disguises its strength so that you can stack AQ/AJ on A high flops. I think I only 3 bet here QQ+ against unknowns.

As for my plan postflop...

If villian checks to us, I would likely be checking back any dry A high board (looking for turn and river value), & betting at wet ones.

If villian cbets, I would likely be bluff raising any dry lowcard boards, and folding to any connected/wet boards with broadways and that. I would also just call an Axx board if he cbets.
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:30 pm

I would put him on an even tighter range TT+, AJs+, AQo+. No real good player would 4x, I think 3x Max.

AK, AQ - So with AK or AQ I would 3bet to 832ish, Fold to a 4Bet. Going with my fish image, his 4 bet range would be QQ+. If he flats my 3bet we can re-asses on the flop.

AJ - I fold!

PLS feel free to bash me on this one! Twisted Evil

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:07 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:I would put him on an even tighter range TT+, AJs+, AQo+. No real good player would 4x, I think 3x Max.

AK, AQ - So with AK or AQ I would 3bet to 832ish, Fold to a 4Bet. Going with my fish image, his 4 bet range would be QQ+. If he flats my 3bet we can re-asses on the flop.

AJ - I fold!

PLS feel free to bash me on this one! Twisted Evil
So take a shot at the pot odds and the hand equity you end up with. If villain 4bets (basically shoves) then its so much to win so much....lets compare that to our hand vs QQ+
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:07 pm

So we need about 35% to call his 4bet. Against QQ+ we have only 31% with AK and only 23% with AQ. So AQ is a clear fold, but with AK so close should we still fold?

whats your thoughts on the hand ranges I have assigned?

You know what I like about you yoda, you know how to bring us back down to reality!!! king

Note as you know I'M NOT A MATH WIZ lol!

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:27 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:So we need about 35% to call his 4bet. Against QQ+ we have only 31% with AK and only 23% with AQ. So AQ is a clear fold, but with AK so close should we still fold?

whats your thoughts on the hand ranges I have assigned?

You know what I like about you yoda, you know how to bring us back down to reality!!! king

Note as you know I'M NOT A MATH WIZ lol!
I'm thinking vs a bad player we can never really discount ako and jj, nor should we usually discount tt and aq. Furthermore we have to give some percent of spew on his part so perhaps 1% or so.

edit: also I don't always have the best fundamentals so you can't just take what I say as correct Wink


Last edited by JodaB. on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:32 pm

REEBS77 wrote:
My math tells me that calling with the AJ hands is borderline with just pot odds, however since we are IP, we can probably still flat and outplay him sometimes postflop.
Not sure if you saw we had 37bbs, not saying that changes things but making sure you saw that. I would consider flatting with AJ and playing quite cautiously. Its tough though because we are so dominated vs a 4x range.

Personally, I dont like 3 betting any of these hands. Not enough equity vs his get it in range. Plus flatting AK disguises its strength so that you can stack AQ/AJ on A high flops. I think I only 3 bet here QQ+ against unknowns.
The thing about disguising our strength is we don't get to keep in too many dominated hands, maybe AJ and AT, some of which will 4bet us pre. But more importantly we are often stuck on the flop when he cbets and we didn't hit an A or K and is a little cally because hes obv a fish.

.
As for my plan postflop...

If villian checks to us, I would likely be checking back any dry A high board (looking for turn and river value), & betting at wet ones.
Free cards?

If villian cbets, I would likely be bluff raising any dry lowcard boards, and folding to any connected/wet boards with broadways and that. I would also just call an Axx board if he cbets.
I don't mind all your postflop play here too much, except I don't think bluff raising any flop is a good idea especially vs a 4x pre.
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:38 pm

JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:So we need about 35% to call his 4bet. Against QQ+ we have only 31% with AK and only 23% with AQ. So AQ is a clear fold, but with AK so close should we still fold?

whats your thoughts on the hand ranges I have assigned?

You know what I like about you yoda, you know how to bring us back down to reality!!! king

Note as you know I'M NOT A MATH WIZ lol!
I'm thinking vs a bad player we can never really discount ako and jj, nor should we usually discount tt and aq. Furthermore we have to give some percent of spew on his part so perhaps 1% or so.

edit: also I don't always have the best fundamentals so you can't just take what I say as correct Wink

NOTED but I have to respect them! as they are at higher level then mine!

so are you saying his 4bet range is the same as his 2bet range?

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:54 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:So we need about 35% to call his 4bet. Against QQ+ we have only 31% with AK and only 23% with AQ. So AQ is a clear fold, but with AK so close should we still fold?

whats your thoughts on the hand ranges I have assigned?

You know what I like about you yoda, you know how to bring us back down to reality!!! king

Note as you know I'M NOT A MATH WIZ lol!
I'm thinking vs a bad player we can never really discount ako and jj, nor should we usually discount tt and aq. Furthermore we have to give some percent of spew on his part so perhaps 1% or so.

edit: also I don't always have the best fundamentals so you can't just take what I say as correct Wink

NOTED but I have to respect them! as they are at higher level then mine!

so are you saying his 4bet range is the same as his 2bet range?
Often an out of place bigger open like a 4x here is a sign villain wants to get it in. Sometimes tho certain players just raise 4x from ep, some just 4x every where. Some 4x there strong trouble hands like ak aq and jj etc. So its not going to be the same but itll be closer. But we shouldn't assume a bad player only 4bets qq+. Thats more something a decent to good player would do.

As soon as we see the 4x, we insta note him as bad and expect him to play back at us incorrectly unless we have reason to believe hes a nit. If we think he only plays back with QQ+ its probably because thats what we feel we would do if in that spot.
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:23 pm

So if his 4bet range is TT+, AJs+, AQo+, with AK & AQ we should defiantly be 3bet/calling an AI, 3bet/ 5beting AI. Bottom line is we should be getting these to hands in no matter what pre! right?

If we look at this in a different light. Going with our image of the player as weak opponent, instead of treating him as a P-Fish, He maybe a A-Fish and if so we can actually play AJ the same way. His range would be a lot larger, maybe something like this 55+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo and thats being conservative.

Now thinking about it, you're so right about them not adjusting their range. most weak players only think about what they have!

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:38 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:So if his 4bet range is TT+, AJs+, AQo+, with AK & AQ we should defiantly be 3bet/calling an AI, 3bet/ 5beting AI. Bottom line is we should be getting these to hands in no matter what pre! right?

If we look at this in a different light. Going with our image of the player as weak opponent, instead of treating him as a P-Fish, He maybe a A-Fish and if so we can actually play AJ the same way. His range would be a lot larger, maybe something like this 55+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo and thats being conservative.

Now thinking about it, you're so right about them not adjusting their range. most weak players only think about what they have!
I like all this, I also think we 3bet a little smaller even for balance (just to make things neat and tidy for other players watching at the table) and to induce worse 4bets from everyone and villain.

So what if he flats then? Whats our plan on certain flops?
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:11 pm

kk There a so many scenarios to consider, I don't know where to start! Give me some flops, I will break them down.

So villain raises 320, we 3bet to 620, he calls the extra 300. The pot is 1360....

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:27 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:kk There a so many scenarios to consider, I don't know where to start! Give me some flops, I will break them down.

So villain raises 320, we 3bet to 620, he calls the extra 300. The pot is 1360....
Can't remember my 3bet size now, I kinda have to see the hand on a replayer, I'm think 700 ish, your original size was good too though. Puts like 1500 in the pot with 2100 ish behind I guess.

Flop could be like AXX KXX KQX XXY some two toned some mono, some rainbow etc.
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:43 am

Haven't forgot about this, was just playing a liveament last night. Will get to this later tonight.

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:04 pm

So the pot is 1520 and the board comes....
Axx
AK: If he checks, I would bet 550. If he calls my bet, I continue with my small bets, trying to get it in on the turn or river. If he bets anything, I can narrow his range to AA, AJs+, AQo+. I would min raise his bet. No matter what I'm going to VB until we have it into the middle.

AQ: If he checks, I would do the same as I would with AK. If he bets something, I would call and re-asses on the turn. If he shuts down on the turn I VB the shit out of it.

Kxx
AK: Whether he checks or bets I'm going to VB this until we get it in.

AQ: If he checks I'm would bet 550, fold to a check raise. If he leads, I fold.

KQx
AK: If he checks, I go with my line of betting 550. If he bets, I would VB 3bet or push AI(its all based on his sizing).

AQ: If he checks, I bet 550. I he flats I re-asses on the turn. If he check raises, I fold. And if he leads, I fold.

xxy ??? does this mean paired board?
AK:

AQ:
Two Toned
AK & AQ: If he checks, I take a stab at it and if he bets, I fold.

Mono Board
AK & AQ: (mono board of with no draw) If he checks, I take a stab at it and if he bets, I fold.
AK & AQ: (mono board of with a draw) I ship to try take town the pot just in case I miss.

Rainbow Board
AK & AQ: If he checks, I take a stab at it and if he bets, I fold.



Last edited by RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:24 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  sngking on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:18 pm

Wished I read this before playing today,lol

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:25 am

finished up my flop play, I hope you like.

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:41 am

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:finished up my flop play, I hope you like.
now you have to find your pot odds when you stab and he shoves vs poker stoving your equity on flops you miss or don't hit very hard.

xxy is like 774

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:49 am

kk Will get to this soon very tired right now. I hate working nights! ty joda

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:32 am

Started to work on this and got a little confused about his range. Since he has expressed he is a weaker player, can we discount his pocket pairs on low boards? I'm thinking he would just lead with TT+.

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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  JodaB. on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:06 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Started to work on this and got a little confused about his range. Since he has expressed he is a weaker player, can we discount his pocket pairs on low boards? I'm thinking he would just lead with TT+.
ha, well ill make it easy cause we have lots of other discussion, we have to overs to any flop, if not then we have top pair, theres generally fold equity, so our plan in this hand is 3pre and get it in on mostly and flop. Once we bet the flop we give ourselves odds to call vs his range. We could do this with ak, aq easy, and often even ajs, might consider aj even. Easy game?
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Re: AK/AQ spot....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:07 am

Very Happy I was thinking that was going to be the conclusion when you continued on. I have never broke down hand like this before, so I didn't want to miss anything! Thank you for taking the time to run through this with me.

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