Flop Play.....

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Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:16 pm

looking to improve on my flop play/post play do u have any tips stuff i should study..

im going to go over more cbetting, more hand reading, flop textures.

also do you think playing cash games will help my overall post flop game for tournaments or are tournaments and cash games really that much different of games? its all Cev so i think it would correlate with each other to an extent, except that tourneys tend play with shorter stacks effective stacks.


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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:27 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:looking to improve on my flop play/post play do u have any tips stuff i should study..

im going to go over more cbetting, more hand reading, flop textures.

also do you think playing cash games will help my overall post flop game for tournaments or are tournaments and cash games really that much different of games? its all Cev so i think it would correlate with each other to an extent, except that tourneys tend play with shorter stacks ffective stacks.

lol @ this thread pls delete

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  JodaB. on Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:58 pm

No!

Sometimes if i don't respond its cause im thinkin...
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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:15 pm

lol no no no i wasnt getting impatient lol i was saying that because of my bone head idea of applying cash game tactics to a mtt!! this will only help my early game imo

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  JodaB. on Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:17 pm

ya i think we should get into 3betting first so preflop is there and solid.
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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  Smoker.B. on Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:06 pm

cash games are great to apply to early game mtt strat and playing deepr

joda doesnt think so Mad  , but i know it. Surprised 

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  JodaB. on Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:22 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:cash games are great to apply to early game mtt strat and playing deepr

joda doesnt think so Mad  , but i know it. Surprised 

No youre mistaken on my view, to be clear, cash game and mtt fundamentals are the same.
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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:16 pm

JodaB. wrote:

First thing we have to do is evaluate the raise.

If hes good, we 3bet a polarized range. If he sees us as abc, hes just gonna fold his air and 4bet his but hands. So we'll 3bet get it in with nut hands, and 3bet/fold all the junk hands we are dealt. This way he can't always just fold to our 3bets or we begin to exploit him.

If hes a bad loose passive player, we can 3bet and extended value range. Because they call 3bets oop with hands like JTs, we can 3bet hands like KJs and AJs, and expect to come out ahead more often than not when they flat.

Vs randoms we 3bet the 2nd way, unpolarized, hands like 77 play good in position vs a flatting range of any BW since we are usually better than 50/50 anyways and we are in position.

We don't want to 3bet medium hands like KJs vs a good player because we often have to fold to a 4bet, and we could have flatted and saw a flop.

For example a good reg (forboon ;p) opens cu for 3x, you have JTs on the button and 3bet, forboon 4bets and you have to fold. Thats a terrible result, you could have flatted in position and played postfop (that comes later). Really you would rather 3bet/fold k2o, and flat JTs.

But vs Donkey McJoe who raises cu with k7s and you 3bet with KJs, he flat and now you stand to make killer monies.


So we need to spend time learning how to use adjusted 3bets ranges vs certain opponents, and then magically we just are always ahead.

The next things are bet sizing but thats easy once we grasp this in practice, and just that we will almost always cbet every flop.
For 3 betting we Don't have to discuss, I read the other thread you created with superman.

I have just have to look at the numbers behind some ranges to get an idea of what profitable and whats not.

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  JodaB. on Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:25 pm

Alright then postlfop is just a continuation of the same strategy.

We bet our nuts and air, and x our medium hands.

Then we adjust based on our opponents tendencies.

We develop post flops through notes and through thinking about our ranges, our opponents ranges, our perceived range, and the range our opponents think we perceive of their range.

repetition helps us patternize all this in a flash.
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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:26 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:cash games are great to apply to early game mtt strat and playing deepr

joda doesnt think so Mad  , but i know it. Surprised 

Ive been back and forth with this for last couple days and came to the conclusion that using cash games could be good because u get more opportunities to use it and refine it. In a mtt you may a couple per game if you bust in other spots, in turn taking you longer to develop a certain aspect of the game . if we want to work on stuff like, we can use cash games to this as well we just have to buyin accordingly..

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:28 pm

JodaB. wrote:Alright then postlfop is just a continuation of the same strategy.

We bet our nuts and air, and x our medium hands.

Then we adjust based on our opponents tendencies.

We develop post flops through notes and through thinking about our ranges, our opponents ranges, our perceived range, and the range our opponents think we perceive of their range.

repetition helps us patternize all this in a flash.
this is why cash games with auto top up can be so great

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:30 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:cash games are great to apply to early game mtt strat and playing deepr

joda doesnt think so Mad  , but i know it. Surprised 

No youre mistaken on my view, to be clear, cash game and mtt fundamentals are the same.
right all fundementals are the same, its just we need to some make adjustments to for the game we're playing


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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:35 pm

JodaB. wrote:Alright then postlfop is just a continuation of the same strategy.

We bet our nuts and air, and x our medium hands.

Then we adjust based on our opponents tendencies.

We develop post flops through notes and through thinking about our ranges, our opponents ranges, our perceived range, and the range our opponents think we perceive of their range.
repetition helps us patternize all this in a flash.
Right on, excellent answer.... I have been working hard at always thinking in ranges. I can admit its been hard with everything I have to focus on.Getting better tho! In fact i find I'm able to work some things out without a calc. I'm able do some of it in realtime. At times I'm having moments of Clairvoyance.

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:10 pm

If you need a basic post flop refresher, here is a few free vids... Studying this is new to me, so watching whatever will be very beneficial to me. cheers.

Gripsed.....


Splitsuit....<---need to watch this one again


Beanstock poker...(lolz)


2+2  article... going to read....
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/concept-week-8-evaluating-board-texture-442027/


I'm going to post everything I learn ITT.  From board textures, Cbets, optimal lines on diff boards vs different types of players,  to bet sizing strategies, everything. This is going to make me lots of coin and maybe you guys can refresh something you have forgotten or even learn something new.

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:08 am

The Basics
How do we Win Money at Poker?
- We get worse hands to call us when we're ahead and make better hands fold when we're behind.

Bluff Mindset:
- Is this player missing the flop a lot?
- Will this player fold when they miss?

Value Mindset:
- Will my Opponent continue with a second best hand?
- How Big of a pot do I want?
- Actual Bet Sizes

Value Bet
- A Value Bet is a Bet where we expect to be ahead the range our opponent continues with.
- We Value bet when we get enough second best hands to Continue.
- In order to properly Value bet, we need to ahead of at least 50% of our Opponent C-Range.

Showdown Value(SDV)
- When we think our hand is ahead, but not enough to actually Value Bet.
- Hands that are to strong to be a bluff, but not strong enough to be a Value bet.
- More often Checking is the optimal route.

Bluff
- When we make a bet with a weak hand(limited to no equity) and no draw.
- A Bluff is When our goal is to get our Villain to fold better Hands.
- We Bluff when we get enough better hands to fold.

Semi-Bluffing
- Taking a strong action when you dont have a made hand, but rather have draw (eqiuty in the hand on future streets)
- OESD, FLUSH, Or better (8 Outs or More)
(used against Good opponents to deceive them)

Note: The strength of our hand changes Vs the Opponent(s) in the hand.

Board Textures

Flop Textures
- Dry/Heavy (AK5r, KJ7r)
- Dry/Light (K73r, 732r)
- Wet/Heavy (JT6s, 987s)
- Wet/Light (963s, 652s)
- Monotone (AT5 , 854)
- Paired (KJJs, 663r)
- Bingo (888)

Dry: Limited Draws, Wet: Draw Heavy, Heavy: High, Light: Low
Monotone: All the same suit.

Bluff Cbetting

This is assuming we missed the Flop & we're against Unknowns. Adjustments need to be Once we acquire more information.(some of these lines will change)

Dry/Heavy (AK5r, KJ7r)
- Great for Cbetting
- Hits Our Range and misses their range alot of the time.
Dry/Light (K73r, 732r)
- Great for Cbetting
- Hits our range and misses their range alot of the time.
Wet/Heavy (JT6s, 987s)
- Poor for Cbetting
- These flops tend to hit our villains calling range hard.
Wet/Light (963s, 652s)
- Poor for cbetting
- These flops tend to miss our range.
Monotone (AT5 , 854)
- Great for Cbetting
- Villains really can only continue with small portion of their range.
Paired (KJJs, 663r)
- Great for Cbetting
- These flops miss our Opponents range most of the time.
Bingo (888)
- B . I . N . G . O, B . I . N . G . O and bingo was his namo

Adjustments:

Bet Sizing


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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:59 pm

Just got Flopzilla, so some of the silliness from the previous post will be changing.. I'm going to compare my hand vs villains open raising ranges, cold calling ranges and 3bet ranges. study 

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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:05 am

I did quite a bit of work with flop play yesterday. Can you guys post a few random flop spots me to asses, I would like to see how I am doing so far. Non ICM pls

Going to be playing a liveament, so I won't be able to get to these till later.


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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:02 am

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:I did quite a bit of work with flop play yesterday. Can you guys post a few random flop spots me to asses, I would like to see how I am doing so far. Non ICM pls

Going to be playing a liveament, so I won't be able to get to these till later.


Okay RW, its been long enough, no one is going to post hands for you.... Step up and show us what you learned! Wink
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Re: Flop Play.....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed May 14, 2014 3:19 pm

First off sorry for not responding sooner....

Been away from the tables for almost 2 months now. TBH, back in March I got so super tilted over a small downswing,  I started to play like a complete newb again, burning up about 1/3 of my BR doing so. At that time, I decided it was time to take a break from poker. I even withdrew my remaining balance from stars. Embarassed now almost 2 months later, I am now back on stars playing again, getting back into the groove of things one game at a time.

As for the progression in my flop play, I am still relatively at the same point as I was back in March. What I had been working on at that time, was how much eq. a hand rank (2pr,3OK, etc.)had on different flops. I also started to work how a unknown players range hits the each type flop and how much equity the generally have. (obv. I still need to go further with this.) Now that I'm back, I'm going continue my focus on my opponents postflop ranges, but now add bet sizing into the mix.

So anyway now that I have rambled on about my kiddish ways, I am going to move on..I hope I'm still welcome around here, after just disappearing.

Also reebs, I Got you these while I was down in Pennsylvania a few weeks ago.

I will send them soon..

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