Donk Betting

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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:40 am

lol solid pic imo.

So Nick, what is continuing range vs H?
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:20 am

There's no antes.

H preflop open mins: 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,73s+,62s+,52s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J3o+,
T5o+,95o+,85o+,75o+,65o,54o

Reebs 3bets: 66+,ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo?

Thats 10% for value I guess, what are you bluffing with?

Come on peeps, ranges are hands not %'s  Basketball 

And reebs flats 55-22,A8s-A2s,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,72s+,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,A9o-A2o,K2o+,Q2o+,J2o+,T2o+,92o+,82o+,73o+,64o+,54o,43o?
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:52 am

JodaB. wrote:There's no antes.

H preflop open mins: 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,73s+,62s+,52s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J3o+,
T5o+,95o+,85o+,75o+,65o,54o

Reebs 3bets: 66+,ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo?

Thats 10% for value I guess, what are you bluffing with?

Come on peeps, ranges are hands not %'s  Basketball 

And reebs flats 55-22,A8s-A2s,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,72s+,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,A9o-A2o,K2o+,Q2o+,J2o+,T2o+,92o+,82o+,73o+,64o+,54o,43o?


Sorry irl job was calling me before...

yeah 3 betting for value = AA-77,AKs-ATs,KQs,AKo-AJo,KQo = 8.75%
3 betting as bluff = T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s,A6o-A2o = 7.84%

Calling = 66-22,A9s-A2s,KJs-K2s,QJs-Q2s,JTs-J2s,T7s-T2s,96s-92s,85s-82s,74s-72s,63s-62s,53s-52s,43s-42s,32s,ATo-A7o,KJo-K2o,QJo-Q2o,JTo-J2o,T9o-T2o,98o-92o,87o-83o,76o-74o,65o-64o,54o,43o,32o = 76.17%

I think that that 3 bet bluffing range is optimistic and i dont bluff with all of those hands, everytime. So sometimes those hands are called, depending on the specifics. However my general strat has been to turn the weak non-suited aces into bluffs, and also bluff with suited connectors. I turn the unsuited aces into bluffs since I dont want to be guessing with weak top pair hands post flop (and the suited aces give me more options to bluff with slight or back-door equity and such post flop), and we have a blocker to his calling/raising hands. Honestly not 100% sure why I 3bet the suited connectors right now....  What a Face  help!

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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:53 am

JodaB. wrote:There's no antes.


Da fuk?  Twisted Evil 
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:57 am

REEBS77 wrote:Honestly not 100% sure why I 3bet the suited connectors right now....  What a Face  help!


I want to focus on this before moving on.... please.
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:40 am

REEBS77 wrote:
REEBS77 wrote:Honestly not 100% sure why I 3bet the suited connectors right now....  What a Face  help!


I want to focus on this before moving on.... please.  
nice cause i see a leak here imo, that can be corrected very quickly. I actually think you are gonna love this.

maybe we should look at a 3betting construct thread, maybe an old one or make a new one so we can come back after we are done with the side track!
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:47 am

JodaB. wrote:
REEBS77 wrote:
REEBS77 wrote:Honestly not 100% sure why I 3bet the suited connectors right now....  What a Face  help!


I want to focus on this before moving on.... please.  
nice cause i see a leak here imo, that can be corrected very quickly.  I actually think you are gonna love this.

maybe we should look at a 3betting construct thread, maybe an old one or make a new one so we can come back after we are done with the side track!

Ok cool, I will be in and out of here all day today just incase i go silent. Very Happy If there is one existing, lets just look at it.

I think typically we want to 3 bet bluff the very top of our (what would have been) folding range, correct? The thing that throws me off is the huge wide calling range....
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:04 pm

so if reebs 3bets x% extended value, assuming h plays as reebs described. what hands are left to flat to see a flop vs h's 85%?
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:36 pm

JodaB. wrote:so if reebs 3bets x% extended value, assuming h plays as reebs described.  what hands are left to flat to see a flop vs h's 85%?

Playable hands - (Reebs above 3 bet for value range (8.5%?) + extended value %) = flatting hands

I think thats what you were asking? ...
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:38 pm

In order to give you a full hand range, we need to determine how "extended" we can really get, right?
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:39 pm

REEBS77 wrote:In order to give you a full hand range, we need to determine how "extended" we can really get, right?
wrong thread Wink
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:39 pm

REEBS77 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:so if reebs 3bets x% extended value, assuming h plays as reebs described.  what hands are left to flat to see a flop vs h's 85%?

Playable hands - (Reebs above 3 bet for value range (8.5%?) + extended value %) = flatting hands

I think thats what you were asking?  ...
ja
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:17 pm

This thread faded a little so ill wrap up my initial point.

Since we 3bet from the blinds quite a bit it leaves our flat range pretty weak.

Its tough to rep a decent hand vs a good reg, and like you would do vs a rando, they will often repop with their air and value and flat with med hands. If they do this as a default then we are burning money with our airy leads.

Vs a fishier player we often get flatted and owned by high cards.

We would really be looking for a player that is loose pre (can't be tight because our donks won't ever get through), that plays too loose to 3bet (remember we 3bet a very wide value range vs this player anyways) that some how believes us when we lead flops.

There is a time an place to donk, but vs the vast majority 3betting pre, check calling, or even check raising is going to be better.

As far as balancing, it means if we have a lot of value we need alot of air, and for donking we usually its tough to have a value range and its usually really small if we do (sets from pair combos etc.).

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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:35 pm

JodaB. wrote:This thread faded a little so ill wrap up my initial point.

Since we 3bet from the blinds quite a bit it leaves our flat range pretty weak.

Its tough to rep a decent hand vs a good reg, and like you would do vs a rando, they will often repop with their air and value and flat with med hands.  If they do this as a default then we are burning money with our airy leads.

Vs a fishier player we often get flatted and owned by high cards.  

We would really be looking for a player that is loose pre (can't be tight because our donks won't ever get through), that plays too loose to 3bet (remember we 3bet a very wide value range vs this player anyways) that some how believes us when we lead flops.  

There is a time an place to donk, but vs the vast majority 3betting pre, check calling, or even check raising is going to be better.

As far as balancing, it means if we have a lot of value we need alot of air, and for donking we usually its tough to have a value range and its usually really small if we do (sets from pair combos etc.).


Sorry xmas crept up on me there with my last minute shopping/wife getting sick. Ended up doin a lot more than originally planned over my "break".... I do want this thread to keep going. I dont think we have finished yet.

I do agree with some of this post, but not all of it. I want to do a tiny bit more thinking before I reply though. Hold tight. Wink
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:11 pm

JodaB. wrote:Since we 3bet from the blinds quite a bit it leaves our flat range pretty weak.

Not true!  Totally depends on the villain how much and what hands we 3bet.  We proved this in the other thread.  For example, tag-ish MP min opens 40bb eff, we dont have a huge 3 bet range.  We prob even flat AQ.  We have a HUGE flatting range though, and on random uncoordinated flops, I believe we crush his "going-forward" range.  Certainly, he doesn't continue with enough of his range to make donking 1/2 pot unprofitable!? .... Furthermore, I believe that the future holds less 3 betting from blinds, and more flatting and outplaying ppl postflop, even out of position.

JodaB. wrote:Its tough to rep a decent hand vs a good reg, and like you would do vs a rando, they will often repop with their air and value and flat with med hands.  If they do this as a default then we are burning money with our airy leads.

Good regs are only in your dreams.  They don't exist in the games I play anyways.  Wink

But yes, I agree here that we dont want to really do this vs good regs who will pick up on it.


JodaB. wrote:Vs a fishier player we often get flatted and owned by high cards.  

I disagree.  But this is something that we can prove with math and by trying it out and watching for results.  I think that fishy players don't really bluff raise our flop donk bets.  Its not something that ppl are used to, so they react poorly to it.  Most fishy players imo will just fold to take the easy way out when they miss the J27r flop with KTo.  You think most ppl will bluff raise you there?Now, obv if the villian is russian and/or calls himself YDJKR, my theories are incorrect.


JodaB. wrote:We would really be looking for a player that is loose pre (can't be tight because our donks won't ever get through), that plays too loose to 3bet (remember we 3bet a very wide value range vs this player anyways) that some how believes us when we lead flops.  

This is what I need to put more thought into, cus thing is, squee is advocating doing the flop donk vs tight preflop players.  He actually seems to target them specifically when they have a very low cbet %.

JodaB. wrote:There is a time an place to donk, but vs the vast majority 3betting pre, check calling, or even check raising is going to be better.

AGREE.  Always a time and place.  Just trying to find that time and place, and no one else has been able to tell me specifically, 100% for sure, when that time and place is.... Your above about loose players pre is the closest anyone has come.  No one seems to have a defined donk bet strategy.  So I am trying to figure it out.  Prob overdoing it currently though.

JodaB. wrote:As far as balancing, it means if we have a lot of value we need alot of air, and for donking we usually its tough to have a value range and its usually really small if we do (sets from pair combos etc.).

Yeah, I try to not worry about balancing when I am playing in game (micros), cus it seems like I always just level myself.  However I am donking with more than just nuts like sets.  I have been checking their cbet stats before I act, and if villain doesnt cbet very high, then I will donk all the hands that I dont want to see the free turn with.  Like top/mid pairs on wet boards (value), or hands with very very little equity and no real backdoor barreling cards (bluff).  I mean really, if I donk 1/2 pot with any two cards, it needs to work only 1/3 times.  Do you really think that villain is folding less than 1/3 hands he sees the flop with?? Cus I don't know many villains that continue THAT much.
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:39 pm

Just was playin around in CRev... Lets just say that villian raised pre with a super tight range of 88+, AJs+, AQo+

Flop comes down T72r

We donk bet, expecting villian to fold anything less than a pair.

In this scenario, villain folds 50% of the time! Imagine we only donked a 1/3 or 1/2 psb? We are printing money!

Now, lets say villians original opening range was much much wider at 32% = AA-22,AKs-A2s,KQs-K7s,QJs-Q8s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s,43s,AKo-A5o,KQo-K9o,QJo-Q9o,JTo-J9o,T9o,98o

On the same flop, if villain continues with any pair, any backdoor flush draw, & any gutshot straight draw.... they still fold 38.9% of the time!


Not really any point to this post, just putting text on the interwebz.  What a Face 
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:56 pm

REEBS77 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:Since we 3bet from the blinds quite a bit it leaves our flat range pretty weak.

Not true!  Totally depends on the villain how much and what hands we 3bet.
its true its not always but its vs good villains we are talking about for this statement as far as 3betting all our nut hands by default. Vs bad villains I'll suggest (we can discuss it) that we donk a weaker range in general vs a call station. We have two general types of bad players, bad tight, and bad loose, and both aren't good to bluff vs as a general rule.

 We proved this in the other thread.  For example, tag-ish MP min opens 40bb eff, we dont have a huge 3 bet range.
Well we might relatively, a tag player has a tight range and we'll have problems opening up on any street vs them. But you should add ranges so we can think about the actual hands they continue with and so how often it is.

 We prob even flat AQ.  We have a HUGE flatting range though, and on random uncoordinated flops, I believe we crush his "going-forward" range.
How huge do you think you can flat a fairly short stack, tight range, oop?

 Certainly, he doesn't continue with enough of his range to make donking 1/2 pot unprofitable!?
Its not so certain, we should look at the range pre and continuing vs types of flops we might do this on.

.... Furthermore, I believe that the future holds less 3 betting from blinds, and more flatting and outplaying ppl postflop, even out of position.
Ah future poker, esoterism, I'm warning you, i've been there, and poker is very very different in the future.


Good regs are only in your dreams.  They don't exist in the games I play anyways.  Wink
Yup we are exploring each type we would come across, often we should start our analysis as if we are playing a gto reg, and adjust from there. If you disagree with this, we should really has this part out in another thread or something because i think its key.


But yes, I agree here that we dont want to really do this vs good regs who will pick up on it.
I don't think we want to do it vs tight players (pre) or calling stations either.


JodaB. wrote:Vs a fishier player we often get flatted and owned by high cards.  

I disagree.  But this is something that we can prove with math and by trying it out and watching for results.
how long you think it would take to get a good sample size of flatting pre and leading the flop? I think we need 1k min and prob more like 10k examples, but yes we can do it by math.

 I think that fishy players don't really bluff raise our flop donk bets.  Its not something that ppl are used to, so they react poorly to it.
I agree fishy players don't but every reg from good to bad does it as a default, just as much as most regs know they can shove 10bbs bvb atc vs a rando.

 Most fishy players imo will just fold to take the easy way out when they miss the J27r flop with KTo.  You think most ppl will bluff raise you there?Now, obv if the villian is russian and/or calls himself YDJKR, my theories are incorrect.
I disagree and I think you won't be able to get any good regs to agree with you. Fish in general play to loose, thats why we attack them with a value range, tight fish we come across less often. So in general our strategy should be to pound on them with value bets and make thin value bets whenever we can. The aggressive ones that raise our bets often we can just widen our get it in range. There is the odd player that is tighter than tight regs but we'll have a tough time getting them to fold there preflop range on the flop. But ya, empirically, I think you will notice fish call too much and speculate too much. A high , two over cards, gut shots, weak flush draws, underpairs etc. the rando fish will most often call flop bets with this, and I feel pretty strongly it should be our default assumption vs randos.


JodaB. wrote:We would really be looking for a player that is loose pre (can't be tight because our donks won't ever get through), that plays too loose to 3bet (remember we 3bet a very wide value range vs this player anyways) that some how believes us when we lead flops.  

This is what I need to put more thought into, cus thing is, squee is advocating doing the flop donk vs tight preflop players.  He actually seems to target them specifically when they have a very low cbet %.
We there is certainly a type of player, ideally those that are loose pre, and tight post. Which isn't common, but we can look at the types of pre ranges that we have enough fold equity vs post, and do the math on our donk.

I def use this play but like once a day kinda thing and its usually late game, where i have more reads and the fish who are loose pre, play awful when stack leveraged post.

Its really something thats easier to narrow down in short stack then you can learn deeper stack, because they are related alot.

JodaB. wrote:There is a time an place to donk, but vs the vast majority 3betting pre, check calling, or even check raising is going to be better.

AGREE.  Always a time and place.  Just trying to find that time and place, and no one else has been able to tell me specifically, 100% for sure, when that time and place is.... Your above about loose players pre is the closest anyone has come.  No one seems to have a defined donk bet strategy.  So I am trying to figure it out.  Prob overdoing it currently though.
ya loose pre and tight post is prob best, you might get normal pre and tight post.


Yeah, I try to not worry about balancing when I am playing in game (micros), cus it seems like I always just level myself.
ha true, but you mentioned it.

 However I am donking with more than just nuts like sets.
perhaps but your expecting to get called then.

 I have be
en checking their cbet stats before I act, and if villain doesn't cbet very high, then I will donk all the hands that I dont want to see the free turn with.
cbet flop can be deceiving because if a player is loose pre and good still they might have a bigger checking range than usual. A tight player will have a high cbet and might make us feel both there cbet range is weak and their checking range is weak. So remember there vpip/pfr in relation to this stat or it'll be skewed hard.

 Like top/mid pairs on wet boards (value), or hands with very very little equity and no real backdoor barreling cards (bluff).
Yes the latter is what we would lead bluff on, but too any reg (even b/e) your repping squat and will induce them sometimes to either float or bluff raise their air. Vs a player that might believe you we can def try it with reads and we are quite happy to donk 78s on a j23 board and get folds, but often you'll get called with t9 77 kq a5 etc.

 I mean really, if I donk 1/2 pot with any two cards, it needs to work only 1/3 times.  Do you really think that villain is folding less than 1/3 hands he sees the flop with?? Cus I don't know many villains that continue THAT much.
lets look at some ranges to see the numbers
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:10 pm

REEBS77 wrote:Just was playin around in CRev... Lets just say that villian raised pre with a super tight range of 88+, AJs+, AQo+

Flop comes down T72r

We donk bet, expecting villian to fold anything less than a pair.  

In this scenario, villain folds 50% of the time!  Imagine we only donked a 1/3 or 1/2 psb?  We are printing money!
What kinda of player tho, what was our raise pre? We dont' want to skew things to be right, we wanna look at 1) what a prefect reponse would be 2) we would be ideal for us 3) different types of player responses. If we analyze spots without all that we develop a bias.

I dont' think its quite even 50% you suggested they fold. And what if they have 77? or what if the continue wider? You didn't leave room for bluff.

What kind of villains from what positions opens this range?

1/3 donk does not seem realistic to get this fold equity, 1/2psb maybe but villain gets 3 to 1 on a call, maybe they can't do pot odds but i doubt they fold ako to that.

Now, lets say villians original opening range was much much wider at 32% = AA-22,AKs-A2s,KQs-K7s,QJs-Q8s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s,43s,AKo-A5o,KQo-K9o,QJo-Q9o,JTo-J9o,T9o,98o
Again what position and is this villain good or bad loose/tight aggressive/passive. These are important because we might find some versions of villain are not realistic, like tight pre and loose post etc.

On the same flop, if villain continues with any pair, any backdoor flush draw, & any gutshot straight draw.... they still fold 38.9% of the time!
Again if its a reg type stealing range we won't have success, if its a loose fish we get called with overs a lot too, sometimes just pure air, fewer fish raise as a bluff but its not zero %


I'm not shooting the idea down, but we really want to look at it from an objective view.
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:33 pm

JodaB. wrote:
What kinda of player tho, what was our raise pre?  We dont' want to skew things to be right, we wanna look at 1) what a prefect reponse would be 2) we would be ideal for us 3) different types of player responses.  If we analyze spots without all that we develop a bias.

but if we know what range he calls with, then we are past figuring out what type of opponent they are (preflop anyways).  I purposely left those details out, assuming we can look past it and think of a scenario where some opponent has that range.

and yes you are correct, I am being biased here.  I was generalizing, however I think that this type of situation happens a lot more than you think.

Yes, your three things above is basically stating that we need to make a decision tree to visualize the different options.  I think I have asked you, but have you tried CRev?  I think you would like it.

JodaB. wrote:I dont' think its quite even 50% you suggested they fold.  And what if they have 77?  or what if the continue wider?  You didn't leave room for bluff.

no, we assume villain continues with any pair or better hand on the flop.  so 77 is allowed for.  Sure we left no room for bluffs but we also assumed we have zero hand equity and are relying solely on the bluff working, which we know we don't ever have 0%

If its not 50% then I made a mistake when entering the situation into a CRev tree.  It does all the math as long as you set it up right.

JodaB. wrote:What kind of villains from what positions opens this range?
 
tight players from ep or mp maybe ... I was just playing around, so wanted to kinda look at two extremes to see the difference.  I don't do it enough.

JodaB. wrote:1/3 donk does not seem realistic to get this fold equity, 1/2psb maybe but villain gets 3 to 1 on a call, maybe they can't do pot odds but i doubt they fold ako to that.

you think non-regs are floating?  Jezus.  1/3 donk works 25% of the time in the right spots.  Trust me.  I watched it happen over and over in bigger buyin mtts in squee's video.  Maybe I am not conveying the points properly and I should watch it again... If people are folding to 1/3 psb cbets (they are in my games consistently!), I don't see any reason why they wouldn't for donk bets... and yes I know they are different ranges, etc etc... but I mean the sizing.

JodaB. wrote:Again what position and is this villain good or bad loose/tight aggressive/passive.  These are important because we might find some versions of villain are not realistic, like tight pre and loose post etc.

I am not quite sure why we cant just look at it in general, knowing that we need to tweak each scenario to that opponent?  As long as we know its got assumptions and generalizations in it...Like using a formula that isn't perfect, but generally works.  Maybe im just stoned.   alien 

JodaB. wrote:Again if its a reg type stealing range we won't have success, if its a loose fish we get called with overs a lot too, sometimes just pure air, fewer fish raise as a bluff but its not zero %.

I feel like "Again if its a reg type stealing range we won't have success"  requires more than just a vague statement.  You always tell us to give ranges, so give me further on this!!  Razz

JodaB. wrote:I'm not shooting the idea down, but we really want to look at it from an objective view.

no no I enjoy the conversation and I learn best this way

I look forward to cracking this game one day.  I will probably be 95 though.

Also, Ima get to the future!
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:06 pm

reebzy is higgghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil 

loving this banter!

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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:17 pm

Assassinato tweeted a link to this earlier today, just saw it now... Good timing.

http://www.wptmag.com/wpt-academy.php?articleID=39
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:32 pm

REEBS77 wrote:

but if we know what range he calls with, then we are past figuring out what type of opponent they are (preflop anyways).  I purposely left those details out, assuming we can look past it and think of a scenario where some opponent has that range.
yes but we need to know preflop in relation to there postflop game, and sometimes the same preflop type players play different postflop.

and yes you are correct, I am being biased here.  I was generalizing, however I think that this type of situation happens a lot more than you think.
I'm thinking it happens less often than you think Very Happy 

Yes, your three things above is basically stating that we need to make a decision tree to visualize the different options.  I think I have asked you, but have you tried CRev?  I think you would like it.
Yup i know about it, don't need it yet cause I can answer most of my questions, prob time to start messing with it though.  But ya we should look at the tree, we dont' need the specific math because many lines (player types) won't work out and it will be obvious i think



no, we assume villain continues with any pair or better hand on the flop.  so 77 is allowed for.  Sure we left no room for bluffs but we also assumed we have zero hand equity and are relying solely on the bluff working, which we know we don't ever have 0%
77 wasn't in your preflop range, so my question is what if his range isn't quite that tight etc.  Like if its perfect sure, but we haven't left much room for error in the example.  And sometimes we can have 0% equity but more important to point out we have decided we are making this donk bluff generally because we have very little equity.

If its not 50% then I made a mistake when entering the situation into a CRev tree.  It does all the math as long as you set it up right.
Ah well we can look at preflop% and divide it by the hands they call with and find the fold %.


 
tight players from ep or mp maybe ... I was just playing around, so wanted to kinda look at two extremes to see the difference.  I don't do it enough.
So why are these players playing such a correct range from these positions tho?  This is what i mean, we have to look at the story of the lines to see if they fight the type of player we want to bluff donk flops with.


you think non-regs are floating?
no i think non regs call with air a lot though.


 Jezus.
Krishna


 1/3 donk works 25% of the time in the right spots.  Trust me.  I watched it happen over and over in bigger buyin mtts in squee's video.  Maybe I am not conveying the points properly and I should watch it again... If people are folding to 1/3 psb cbets (they are in my games consistently!),
there is a very big difference between a donk and a cbet.


I don't see any reason why they wouldn't for donk bets... and yes I know they are different ranges, etc etc... but I mean the sizing.
The ranges and initiative are way different when you open raised vs flatted an open raise.  Also the likely player type changes.


I am not quite sure why we cant just look at it in general, knowing that we need to tweak each scenario to that opponent?  As long as we know its got assumptions and generalizations in it...Like using a formula that isn't perfect, but generally works.  Maybe im just stoned.   alien 
Well we can, but we can look at each player type and decide which of them we might donk vs compared to the types of ranges they have in each position. Many of them can be crossed off in many spots.


I feel like "Again if its a reg type stealing range we won't have success"  requires more than just a vague statement.  You always tell us to give ranges, so give me further on this!!  Razz
if its a reg range then they are a reg, and we won't be very successful donking oop with air.



no no I enjoy the conversation and I learn best this way
ja


I look forward to cracking this game one day.  I will probably be 95 though.
no just keep going through this stuff it gets cyclical and repeats.
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  JodaB. on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:40 pm

REEBS77 wrote:Assassinato tweeted a link to this earlier today, just saw it now... Good timing.

http://www.wptmag.com/wpt-academy.php?articleID=39
yup with reads obv. I'm not convinced its the best idea even in that spot, but its a lot different when its the final table. Later in the game we bring down our sizing and villains fold to smaller bets in general.

Notice he says that he can't check raise because villains have a lot of aces in there range? I'm not sure leading out then becomes profitable.

He binks one of the most ideal turns and continues, but pretty much admits he has to shutdown if he doesn't improve.

Still prob ok (ya its assasinato Smile) but its also assasinato reading two players and pwning noobs...we need to be careful about spew donking everywhere because of an article like that.

I think you should play some games and note all your donk bets (whether for value or bluff) and we can look at how often the initial raiser folds.

or look at your pt4
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:54 am

Tonight after I clear the driveway I am going to go thru pt4 and just look at the past mfh even ... Will post the results here. Thx nick!
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Re: Donk Betting

Post  REEBS77 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:55 am

Btw I hadn't read that article until just last night, so I'm not spewing cus of the article. Maybe cus of squee's video tho lol. And yah he admits we need to shut down turn, but the reason he's okay with doing that is cus he believes that he is making money from the flop play, regardless of the result when villian has a hand to continue with....
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Re: Donk Betting

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