Can I Overcall pre..

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Can I Overcall pre..

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:19 pm

PokerStars - $2+$0.20|60/120 Ante 15 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 3,075
UTG: 7,672->>>99+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+
UTG+1: 8,830->>>77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo (maybe a little looser)
UTG+2: 3,618
MP: 6,600
MP+1: 17,135
CO: 8,165
Hero (BTN): 11,870
SB: 8,857

9 players post ante of 15, SB posts SB 60, BB posts BB 120

Pre Flop: (pot: 315) Hero has K:club: T:club:

UTG raises to 360, UTG+1 calls 360, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero??

would u ever call here? and how are my ranges?

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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:35 pm

Its close, talk about postflop...
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  sngking on Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:23 pm

Like Joda says it's close, If I knew opponents were passive post flop I'm calling more, If they are aggressive not so much but you are in position here so I might still call.

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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:00 pm

JodaB. wrote:Its close, talk about postflop...
JEDI POWERS IN EFFECT Shocked

sngking wrote:Like Joda says it's close, If I knew opponents were passive post flop I'm calling more, If they are aggressive not so much but you are in position here so I might still call.
I like that thought.

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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:07 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JEDI POWERS IN EFFECT Shocked
I don't know what just happened here...

anyways....ha, give your thoughts about different scenarios vs different types of flops.

One thing we start to realize from taking notes and patternizing flops is that there are only so many relevant flops to most spots

What flops do we want, what flop don't we want, what flops will we call, fold, bet, raise etc....
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:08 pm

pre: According to the numbers, even if I put a fair amount of spew in for utg1, its always a fold.

Note: these plrs are unknowns 7 & 14 hands

PokerStars - $2+$0.20|60/120 Ante 15 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 3,075
UTG: 7,672->>>99+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+
UTG+1: 8,830->>>77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo (maybe a little looser)
UTG+2: 3,618
MP: 6,600
MP+1: 17,135
CO: 8,165
Hero (BTN): 11,870
SB: 8,857

9 players post ante of 15, SB posts SB 60, BB posts BB 120

Pre Flop: (pot: 315) Hero has  K:club: T:club:

UTG raises to 360, UTG+1 calls 360, fold, fold, fold, fold, Herocalls 360, fold, fold

Flop: (1,395, 3 players)  J:club: Q:heart: 4:club:
UTG bets 480, UTG+1 raises to 3,120, [color=red]Hero ???

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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:08 pm

Also I enjoy foruming, but i will mention that coaching and review is sooo much more effective quicker and easier over screen share, and for the bat caver's I'd do it for free so y'all know you can hit me up sometime for a hh review or questions.
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:10 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:pre: According to the numbers, even if I put a fair amount of spew in for utg1, its always a fold.
ha I thought you meant you were just gonna jedi the flop and ignore talking about it!

According to number? what do you mean by that?

We should generalize our flop analysis (look at all types of spots) and not so much worry about the hand.

As for this one, you hit a nut flop so gii.
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:20 pm

JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JEDI POWERS IN EFFECT Shocked
I don't know what just happened here...
LOL I knew my answer, wanted to see if i could challenge u, knowing that its very close..lol

JodaB. wrote:anyways....ha, give your thoughts about different scenarios vs different types of flops.

One thing we start to realize from taking notes and patternizing flops is that there are only so many relevant flops to most spots

What flops do we want, what flop don't we want, what flops will we call, fold, bet, raise etc....

right on that's a very good thought, I do plan ahead, but I think I dont always do it properly. To develop this skill (which I skimmed over a while back, but never followed through with). I should compare my hand vs their preflop range vs the type of flop?


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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:24 pm

JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:pre: According to the numbers, even if I put a fair amount of spew in for utg1, its always a fold.
ha I thought you meant you were just gonna jedi the flop and ignore talking about it!

According to number?  what do you mean by that?
our hand vs their ranges = total eq(the numbers)

JodaB. wrote:We should generalize our flop analysis (look at all types of spots) and not so much worry about the hand.

As for this one, you hit a nut flop so gii.
GII[x]
calls 360, fold, fold

Flop: (1,395, 3 players)  J:club: Q:heart: 4:club:
UTG bets 480, UTG+1 raises to 3,120, Hero raises to 11,495 and is all-in, UTG calls 6,817 and is all-in, UTG+1 calls 5,335 and is all-in

Turn: (25,602, 3 players)  7:spade:

River: (25,602, 3 players)  7:diamond:

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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:34 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
our hand vs their ranges = total eq(the numbers)
this will suggest we need to make up for it post flop. Most people say, oh I'll out play them postflop. But once they realize what it means they might understand you can't just announce you will do that.

RWPKRPLR1 wrote: I should compare my hand vs their preflop range vs the type of flop?
Ya like make a post such as "if x flop comes ill do this, if player A bets ill do this etc."

still waitin for it  Basketball 
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:59 pm

JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
our hand vs their ranges = total eq(the numbers)
this will suggest we need to make up for it post flop.  Most people say, oh I'll out play them postflop.  But once they realize what it means they might understand you can't just announce you will do that.

ya I think we can only do that after we see some postflop play from our opponent..

In this type scenario against unknowns and their relative hand ranges, I think reverse implied odds come into play. Now if we had some history with the villains or the were opening and calling in later positions it  would be a different story.

JodaB. wrote:
RWPKRPLR1 wrote: I should compare my hand vs their preflop range vs the type of flop?
Ya like make a post such as "if x flop comes ill do this, if player A bets ill do this etc."
still waitin for it  Basketball 


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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:15 pm

Ya if we think about the flops we want, Txx Kxx KTQ KTJ, KK9, AKK, 725 etc. we're really not going to be happy with big pots.

This happens cause kts is so crushed by there ranges. So we really have to be careful flatting here although its prob marginally +ev if we are good enough post. Its prob ok to fold with any read ep is tightish.

I might check if their are deepstack fish in the blinds and flat if there is, and fold if there isn't.

But once you look at our hand vs their range and some flops, its pretty clear we can get into trouble fast.
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:22 pm

am i the only one seeing a clear fold here, and its not even close?

utg range is snug, but utg1 flat right behind is even stronger

 Arrow 

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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  JodaB. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:47 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:am i the only one seeing a clear fold here, and its not even close?

utg range is snug, but utg1 flat right behind is even stronger

 Arrow 

i like it. if you show me your capable of it, ill be impressed.
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  sngking on Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:52 pm

JodaB. wrote:Ya if we think about the flops we want, Txx Kxx KTQ KTJ, KK9, AKK, 725 etc. we're really not going to be happy  with big pots.  

This happens cause kts is so crushed by there ranges.  So we really have to be careful flatting here although its prob marginally +ev if we are good enough post.  Its prob ok to fold with any read ep is tightish.

I might check if their are deepstack fish in the blinds and flat if there is, and fold if there isn't.  

But once you look at our hand vs their range and some flops, its pretty clear we can get into trouble fast.

Like 100 percent this! I was going to say the same thing about being careful postflop cause your looking for a good flop with these kind of hands but joda explained it great here. Cool 

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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:07 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:am i the only one seeing a clear fold here, and its not even close?

utg range is snug, but utg1 flat right behind is even stronger

 Arrow 

i like it.  if you show me your capable of it, ill be impressed.

i think u would like my entire db of mtt hh's  Cool Cool 
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  REEBS77 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:31 am

RW you never really stated stats of opponents preflop, so I assume you dont have much sample on them.... But I usually will check the RFI from ep stat here just to see how active utg has been.  If he's opened 6/7 EP opportunities, then I might rethink that opening range you gave.  Prob best to start with your assumptins with no prev stats though, and adjust from there.

I agree that its pretty marginal flat pre flop if the given ranges are correct.  Later on in the tourny though, when blinds are higher and ppl are more snug postflop, I think it might become more profitable to flat?... Assuming that we will scoop more pots postflop.  Typically preflop raises arent 3x though at that time, which also helps.
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:15 am

Posted that they were unknowns in post #6

But ya you're right, with more history, this play wouldn't be so marginal.

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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:19 am

Fold >>>>> 3b >>>>> flat imo

3 Betting does 2 things

Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)

And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post  (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.

KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with  (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  REEBS77 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:38 am

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Posted that they were unknowns in post #6

But ya you're right, with more history, this play wouldn't be so marginal.  

See im blind. Razz
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  REEBS77 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:53 am

Smoker.B. wrote:Fold >>>>> 3b >>>>> flat imo

3 Betting does 2 things

Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)

And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post  (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.

KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with  (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way

Not really sure 3 bet bluffing is an option.  I kinda think fold>flat>3bet without any reads.  Not getting enough folds out of those small opening/flatting ranges to make the bluff profitable, are we? .... the hands you mentioned above arent even in RWs range that he assigned to the utg opener, and are barely inside the range for the flatter.
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:56 am

REEBS77 wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:Fold >>>>> 3b >>>>> flat imo

3 Betting does 2 things

Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)

And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post  (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.

KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with  (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way

Not really sure 3 bet bluffing is an option.  I kinda think fold>flat>3bet without any reads.  Not getting enough folds out of those small opening/flatting ranges to make the bluff profitable, are we? .... the hands you mentioned above arent even in RWs range that he assigned to the utg opener, and are barely inside the range for the flatter.

We are certainly deep enough, and it doesn't hurt us to fold to a shove , and we don't give them good enough implied odds to set mine .
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:04 am

also, im not saying TOO 3b, im saying its something we could think about given certain circumstances

this hand is clearly a fold  Surprised 
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..

Post  REEBS77 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:35 am

Smoker.B. wrote:
REEBS77 wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:Fold >>>>> 3b >>>>> flat imo

3 Betting does 2 things

Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)

And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post  (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.

KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with  (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way

Not really sure 3 bet bluffing is an option.  I kinda think fold>flat>3bet without any reads.  Not getting enough folds out of those small opening/flatting ranges to make the bluff profitable, are we? .... the hands you mentioned above arent even in RWs range that he assigned to the utg opener, and are barely inside the range for the flatter.

We are certainly deep enough, and it doesn't hurt us to fold to a shove , and we don't give them good enough implied odds to set mine .

Did you read my message or just blindly type?
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