What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

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What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:53 pm

What are some reasons we 3bet preflop, and if anyone wants to give there understanding on 3betting. Don't worry about right or wrong cause if we are wrong we stand to learn something new, and if that happens our roi% goes up.

3bet, what for?
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:01 pm

Well, I think the reason we 3 bet is to earn chips..but when is it profitable? Anytime they fold or call with worse? Wink

I will post some 3 bet pre hands here and we can dissect them. I will be straight up front and say that I don't know if all or any of these spots will be correct, but they will be spots that I feel I can gain some chips. In the 10k super stack (early antes) now.. 29/143 left, 170/340 25a

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:11 pm

pretty obvious first spot...though, this was really good timing as I just 3 bet his river bet on the last hand for a healthy chunk..(no showdown)

Full Tilt Poker Game #32123749182: $10K Super Stack (Early Antes) (249285806), Table 19 - 170/340 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:07:12 PT - 2013/02/15 [19:07:12 ET - 2013/02/15]
Seat 1: konnhand (12,590)
Seat 2: SToXXREiTER (7,690)
Seat 3: Tugapower (17,269)
Seat 4: Bcboy72 (26,010)
Seat 5: ThaKilla23 (12,085)
Seat 7: uboot1987 (19,274)
Seat 8: dnocts (5,550)
Seat 9: mars1888 (3,966)
konnhand antes 25
SToXXREiTER antes 25
Tugapower antes 25
Bcboy72 antes 25
ThaKilla23 antes 25
uboot1987 antes 25
dnocts antes 25
mars1888 antes 25
mars1888 posts the small blind of 170
konnhand posts the big blind of 340
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bcboy72 [Ks Ah]
SToXXREiTER folds
Tugapower raises to 680
Bcboy72 has 15 seconds left to act
Bcboy72 raises to 1,530

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:29 pm

Villain has been raising nearly every lap utg, and been a lot more active overall...


Full Tilt Poker Game #32123866269: $10K Super Stack (Early Antes) (249285806), Table 19 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:26:44 PT - 2013/02/15 [19:26:44 ET - 2013/02/15]
Seat 1: konnhand (15,370)
Seat 3: Tugapower (30,170)
Seat 4: Bcboy72 (25,090)
Seat 5: ThaKilla23 (10,495)
Seat 6: Chlueppli (7,651), is sitting out
Seat 7: uboot1987 (33,579)
Seat 8: dnocts (7,154)
Seat 9: taikura (7,905)
konnhand antes 50
Tugapower antes 50
Bcboy72 antes 50
ThaKilla23 antes 50
Chlueppli antes 50
uboot1987 antes 50
dnocts antes 50
taikura antes 50
ThaKilla23 posts the small blind of 250
Chlueppli posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bcboy72 [6h 7h]
uboot1987 raises to 1,000
dnocts folds
taikura folds
konnhand has 15 seconds left to act
konnhand folds
Tugapower folds
Bcboy72 has 15 seconds left to act
Bcboy72 raises to 2,500

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:30 pm

Yes I am all about starting from the basics, have to cover everything we know before we can find out what we don't know. What is/are the reasons(s) for 3betting here?

Superman wrote:pretty obvious first spot...though, this was really good timing as I just 3 bet his river bet on the last hand for a healthy chunk..(no showdown)

Full Tilt Poker Game #32123749182: $10K Super Stack (Early Antes) (249285806), Table 19 - 170/340 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:07:12 PT - 2013/02/15 [19:07:12 ET - 2013/02/15]
Seat 1: konnhand (12,590)
Seat 2: SToXXREiTER (7,690)
Seat 3: Tugapower (17,269)
Seat 4: Bcboy72 (26,010)
Seat 5: ThaKilla23 (12,085)
Seat 7: uboot1987 (19,274)
Seat 8: dnocts (5,550)
Seat 9: mars1888 (3,966)
konnhand antes 25
SToXXREiTER antes 25
Tugapower antes 25
Bcboy72 antes 25
ThaKilla23 antes 25
uboot1987 antes 25
dnocts antes 25
mars1888 antes 25
mars1888 posts the small blind of 170
konnhand posts the big blind of 340
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bcboy72 [Ks Ah]
SToXXREiTER folds
Tugapower raises to 680
Bcboy72 has 15 seconds left to act
Bcboy72 raises to 1,530
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:40 pm

JodaB. wrote:Yes I am all about starting from the basics, have to cover everything we know before we can find out what we don't know. What is/are the reasons(s) for 3betting here?

A couple of reasons I would 3 bet here, and not just simply with AK... I 3 bet ak here firstly because it is undoubtedly a better hand than he is opening with, and we are going to gain value every time he both folds, and calls with worse.
The other reason I am 3 betting probably a slider 15-20% (ATo, 66+) is because he is often going to flat/stack off with worse (saw a few bad plays and I think he is tilted from the previous hand) plus the times we hit..I think we make money..haven't done the math though.

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:05 pm

Superman wrote:
A couple of reasons I would 3 bet here, and not just simply with AK... I 3 bet ak here firstly because it is undoubtedly a better hand than he is opening with,
I'd rather we said on average it is a better hand.

and we are going to gain value every time he both folds, and calls with worse.
K we need to define 'value'.

The other reason I am 3 betting probably a slider 15-20% (ATo, 66+) is because he is often going to flat/stack off with worse (saw a few bad plays and I think he is tilted from the previous hand) plus the times we hit..I think we make money..haven't done the math though.
This math is going to get real simple soon and you won't have to 'do' anything don't worry. The range you describe is 'unpolarized', polarized will mean the polar ends (nuts and air) with the middle taken out (we flat the middle range not 3bet). The range you describe is called 'extended value' and we will generally use it vs weaker players.
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:05 pm

Why do we 3bet here?

Superman wrote:Villain has been raising nearly every lap utg, and been a lot more active overall...


Full Tilt Poker Game #32123866269: $10K Super Stack (Early Antes) (249285806), Table 19 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:26:44 PT - 2013/02/15 [19:26:44 ET - 2013/02/15]
Seat 1: konnhand (15,370)
Seat 3: Tugapower (30,170)
Seat 4: Bcboy72 (25,090)
Seat 5: ThaKilla23 (10,495)
Seat 6: Chlueppli (7,651), is sitting out
Seat 7: uboot1987 (33,579)
Seat 8: dnocts (7,154)
Seat 9: taikura (7,905)
konnhand antes 50
Tugapower antes 50
Bcboy72 antes 50
ThaKilla23 antes 50
Chlueppli antes 50
uboot1987 antes 50
dnocts antes 50
taikura antes 50
ThaKilla23 posts the small blind of 250
Chlueppli posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bcboy72 [6h 7h]
uboot1987 raises to 1,000
dnocts folds
taikura folds
konnhand has 15 seconds left to act
konnhand folds
Tugapower folds
Bcboy72 has 15 seconds left to act
Bcboy72 raises to 2,500
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:25 pm

JodaB. wrote:Why do we 3bet here?

Superman wrote:Villain has been raising nearly every lap utg, and been a lot more active overall...


Full Tilt Poker Game #32123866269: $10K Super Stack (Early Antes) (249285806), Table 19 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:26:44 PT - 2013/02/15 [19:26:44 ET - 2013/02/15]
Seat 1: konnhand (15,370)
Seat 3: Tugapower (30,170)
Seat 4: Bcboy72 (25,090)
Seat 5: ThaKilla23 (10,495)
Seat 6: Chlueppli (7,651), is sitting out
Seat 7: uboot1987 (33,579)
Seat 8: dnocts (7,154)
Seat 9: taikura (7,905)
konnhand antes 50
Tugapower antes 50
Bcboy72 antes 50
ThaKilla23 antes 50
Chlueppli antes 50
uboot1987 antes 50
dnocts antes 50
taikura antes 50
ThaKilla23 posts the small blind of 250
Chlueppli posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bcboy72 [6h 7h]
uboot1987 raises to 1,000
dnocts folds
taikura folds
konnhand has 15 seconds left to act
konnhand folds
Tugapower folds
Bcboy72 has 15 seconds left to act
Bcboy72 raises to 2,500

I am 3 betting here because he is going to fold enough times, or flat and fold to cbet, or flat and we get a free card to make our hand, or we hit hard, to make value...and without doing the math..I can't give you a value, if that is what you are asking ?

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:36 pm

Superman wrote:


...and without doing the math..I can't give you a value, if that is what you are asking ?
I think this is a semantics issue more than anything but we have to be sticky with things to lay down a good 3bet foundation to get to more advanced stuff.

I still play vs winning regs everyday that each have different missing 3bet fundamentals, even though other parts of there game are as stronger or stronger than me.

Value (or value bet, or betting for value): generally refers to a bet made with the expectation that our opponent will continue with a worse range.

So we don't get value when villain folds. But we do pick up equity. We are not happy to pick up chips in poker, what we want are +ev plays. If we don't set that straight it will cause leaks in our game

I am 3 betting here because he is going to fold enough times, or flat and fold to cbet, or flat and we get a free card to make our hand, or we hit hard, to make value
So firstly 3betting for value with 76s is out because villain will not continue with worse.

Its possible villain will flat and check fold a lot, we can get into how we find that out later but the idea is instead of 3betting a nutted range (JJ+ AK) we will 3bet an extended value range vs these players such as KJ+, A9s+, ATo+, 66+. If villain is really bad we can sometimes extend to say 78s+, most broadway, all suited aces, most aces. Notice how big that range is before 76s gets in there. Not saying its wrong necessarily but we need some reads on our opponents style.

So we know what value is now, what is bluff? Then we will ask what is a reason NOT to 3bet?
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:44 pm

So firstly 3betting for value with 76s is out because villain will not continue with worse.

He doesn't really ahve to continue with worse to make it plus ev though? If he only hits the flop a third of the time, he is folding 2/3...and thus we gain. Not to mention the times that he folds pre..or we smash it..

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:46 pm

Superman wrote:
So firstly 3betting for value with 76s is out because villain will not continue with worse.

He doesn't really ahve to continue with worse to make it plus ev though? If he only hits the flop a third of the time, he is folding 2/3...and thus we gain. Not to mention the times that he folds pre..or we smash it..
Thats not value, +ev is not value, value is when we bet and expect to get continued with worse. For example check calling with the nuts is +ev but not value.

Value is +ev, +ev is not value.
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:13 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Superman wrote:
So firstly 3betting for value with 76s is out because villain will not continue with worse.

He doesn't really ahve to continue with worse to make it plus ev though? If he only hits the flop a third of the time, he is folding 2/3...and thus we gain. Not to mention the times that he folds pre..or we smash it..

Thats not value, +ev is not value, value is when we bet and expect to get continued with worse. For example check calling with the nuts is +ev but not value.

Value is +ev, +ev is not value.

But I am not asking about value, I am now asking about +ev.

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:26 pm

Superman wrote:
JodaB. wrote:
Superman wrote:
So firstly 3betting for value with 76s is out because villain will not continue with worse.

He doesn't really ahve to continue with worse to make it plus ev though? If he only hits the flop a third of the time, he is folding 2/3...and thus we gain. Not to mention the times that he folds pre..or we smash it..

Thats not value, +ev is not value, value is when we bet and expect to get continued with worse. For example check calling with the nuts is +ev but not value.

Value is +ev, +ev is not value.

But I am not asking about value, I am now asking about +ev.
Yes but you called it value, its important we don't do that. It will lead to leaks.

So we know what value is now, what is bluff? Then we will ask what is a reason NOT to 3bet?
bluff is obv going to be getting better hands to fold, that important to lay down fundamentally even if its slightly obv. Why we don't 3bet some hands?
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:41 pm

JodaB. wrote:Yes but you called it value, its important we don't do that. It will lead to leaks.


Not since you cleared up the semantics. And not when I asked the question..

He doesn't really ahve to continue with worse to make it plus ev though? If he only hits the flop a third of the time, he is folding 2/3...and thus we gain. Not to mention the times that he folds pre..or we smash it..

My question still stands..

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:56 pm

Superman wrote:
JodaB. wrote:Yes but you called it value, its important we don't do that. It will lead to leaks.


Not since you cleared up the semantics. And not when I asked the question..

He doesn't really ahve to continue with worse to make it plus ev though? If he only hits the flop a third of the time, he is folding 2/3...and thus we gain. Not to mention the times that he folds pre..or we smash it..

My question still stands..
okok I see what you are pointing too. Yes we gain ev from villain flatting oop with deepish stacks, possibly regardless of cards. In a way it can be called value and be from our extended value range.

We need the reason not to 3bet in order to continue, maybe you know it and I'm talking down to you so far?
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:06 pm

The only reason I can see NOT to 3 bet this, given our knowledge of him being active, and knowing we haven't played too many hands in the recent laps (ie:stronger image currently) is that when we 3 bet here, we give ourselves odds to call the shorties, and then we show our 3 bet range...That being said, us 3 betting a utg raise looks pretty strong..so the shorties are gonna have to have a monster to call/reship...

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:12 pm

Superman wrote:The only reason I can see NOT to 3 bet this, given our knowledge of him being active, and knowing we haven't played too many hands in the recent laps (ie:stronger image currently) is that when we 3 bet here, we give ourselves odds to call the shorties, and then we show our 3 bet range...That being said, us 3 betting a utg raise looks pretty strong..so the shorties are gonna have to have a monster to call/reship...
well i mean in general why would we look at a hand and not three bet it, for example I MIGHT not 3bet KQs here or 88 or JTs. Do you know the reason why we won't 3bet a hand even if its +ev
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:15 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Superman wrote:The only reason I can see NOT to 3 bet this, given our knowledge of him being active, and knowing we haven't played too many hands in the recent laps (ie:stronger image currently) is that when we 3 bet here, we give ourselves odds to call the shorties, and then we show our 3 bet range...That being said, us 3 betting a utg raise looks pretty strong..so the shorties are gonna have to have a monster to call/reship...
well i mean in general why would we look at a hand and not three bet it, for example I MIGHT not 3bet KQs here or 88 or JTs. Do you know the reason why we won't 3bet a hand even if its +ev

Easily dominated hands when we do get flatted ...reverse implied odds.

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:44 pm

Superman wrote:
JodaB. wrote:
Superman wrote:The only reason I can see NOT to 3 bet this, given our knowledge of him being active, and knowing we haven't played too many hands in the recent laps (ie:stronger image currently) is that when we 3 bet here, we give ourselves odds to call the shorties, and then we show our 3 bet range...That being said, us 3 betting a utg raise looks pretty strong..so the shorties are gonna have to have a monster to call/reship...
well i mean in general why would we look at a hand and not three bet it, for example I MIGHT not 3bet KQs here or 88 or JTs. Do you know the reason why we won't 3bet a hand even if its +ev

Easily dominated hands when we do get flatted ...reverse implied odds.
I'm thinking more about what happens when we get 4bet.
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:21 am

Well, when we do get 4 bet...we have to look at the pod odds vs equity...new situation.. If his 4 betting is going to commit us, then we may not..sure..especially with those easily dominated hands...but with a hand like 67s for example...it's easy to get away with as we aren't committing ourselves (still 34% against TT+,A9s+,KTs+,QJs,AQo+,KQo)

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:26 am

Superman wrote:Well, when we do get 4 bet...we have to look at the pod odds vs equity...new situation.. If his 4 betting is going to commit us, then we may not..sure..especially with those easily dominated hands...but with a hand like 67s for example...it's easy to get away with as we aren't committing ourselves (still 34% against TT+,A9s+,KTs+,QJs,AQo+,KQo)
Ok this has to be a missing fundamental. We might flat a hand because its too good to 3bet /fold. For example AQ often fits this bill, and hands that we can legitimately set min and let fish in the pot. Or if we are in the BB and bu raises pre, we wouldn't want to 3bet KQs and fold to a 4bet, when we could see a flop and hit a very strong hand.

This won't seem important until we hear the mantra "never call a 3bet oop vs a good reg"

So good regs, because they know this mantra, will generally (always) never flat our 3bet preflop. So that means we never see a flop, so we dont' need postflop hands. So if we have a hand like 67s vs a good reg, we would never 3bet is because its too good to have to fold to a 4bet, when instead we can flat.

The reason is we only get so many hands, so we want to use the deck to the best of our advantage, so if we are going to 3bet/fold a hand, let it be 97o, rather than JTs. We might 3bet/fold k2s, but we would never 3bet fold kJs.

So in this particular situation (my example not your hand example) we 3bet ands like JJ+ Ak, AND hands like k2s 86s A3s, JTo etc. These are hands that we can't flat with so we will turn them into bluffs.

So this is a polarized range (nuts air), where as when we 3bet an extended value range like 66+ Ato, that is a depolarized range.

I'll make sure, I explained that proper and if we understand or already knew that i'll put in it a simple matrix.
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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  Superman on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:04 am

JodaB. wrote:
Superman wrote:Well, when we do get 4 bet...we have to look at the pod odds vs equity...new situation.. If his 4 betting is going to commit us, then we may not..sure..especially with those easily dominated hands...but with a hand like 67s for example...it's easy to get away with as we aren't committing ourselves (still 34% against TT+,A9s+,KTs+,QJs,AQo+,KQo)
Ok this has to be a missing fundamental. We might flat a hand because its too good to 3bet /fold. For example AQ often fits this bill, and hands that we can legitimately set min and let fish in the pot. Or if we are in the BB and bu raises pre, we wouldn't want to 3bet KQs and fold to a 4bet, when we could see a flop and hit a very strong hand.

This won't seem important until we hear the mantra "never call a 3bet oop vs a good reg"

So good regs, because they know this mantra, will generally (always) never flat our 3bet preflop. So that means we never see a flop, so we dont' need postflop hands. So if we have a hand like 67s vs a good reg, we would never 3bet is because its too good to have to fold to a 4bet, when instead we can flat.

The reason is we only get so many hands, so we want to use the deck to the best of our advantage, so if we are going to 3bet/fold a hand, let it be 97o, rather than JTs. We might 3bet/fold k2s, but we would never 3bet fold kJs.

So in this particular situation (my example not your hand example) we 3bet ands like JJ+ Ak, AND hands like k2s 86s A3s, JTo etc. These are hands that we can't flat with so we will turn them into bluffs.

So this is a polarized range (nuts air), where as when we 3bet an extended value range like 66+ Ato, that is a depolarized range.

I'll make sure, I explained that proper and if we understand or already knew that i'll put in it a simple matrix.

I have done some reading on this in the past, albeit briefly (and forgotten), and haven't brought it into my game...but it makes sense.

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  JodaB. on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:32 am

Superman wrote:
I have done some reading on this in the past, albeit briefly (and forgotten), and haven't brought it into my game...but it makes sense.
Ya so as long as you get the gist. So when someone else rasises pre and its folds to us, our options are to 3bet, flat, or fold.

First thing we have to do is evaluate the raise.

If hes good, we 3bet a polarized range. If he sees us as abc, hes just gonna fold his air and 4bet his but hands. So we'll 3bet get it in with nut hands, and 3bet/fold all the junk hands we are dealt. This way he can't always just fold to our 3bets or we begin to exploit him.

If hes a bad loose passive player, we can 3bet and extended value range. Because they call 3bets oop with hands like JTs, we can 3bet hands like KJs and AJs, and expect to come out ahead more often than not when they flat.

Vs randoms we 3bet the 2nd way, unpolarized, hands like 77 play good in position vs a flatting range of any BW since we are usually better than 50/50 anyways and we are in position.

We don't want to 3bet medium hands like KJs vs a good player because we often have to fold to a 4bet, and we could have flatted and saw a flop.

For example a good reg (forboon ;p) opens cu for 3x, you have JTs on the button and 3bet, forboon 4bets and you have to fold. Thats a terrible result, you could have flatted in position and played postfop (that comes later). Really you would rather 3bet/fold k2o, and flat JTs.

But vs Donkey McJoe who raises cu with k7s and you 3bet with KJs, he flat and now you stand to make killer monies.


So we need to spend time learning how to use adjusted 3bets ranges vs certain opponents, and then magically we just are always ahead.

The next things are bet sizing but thats easy once we grasp this in practice, and just that we will almost always cbet every flop.
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JodaB.

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

Post  REEBS77 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:22 am

Great refresher yoda... You have a good way of explaining this stuff so that it's easy to understand!!
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REEBS77

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Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

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