This hand made history?!

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This hand made history?!

Post  JodaB. on Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:55 pm

This hand became a precursor to time travel...

No Limit Holdem Tournament
PokerStars
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$7.34+$0.66

Stacks:
UTG 6,871 17bb
Hero (UTG+1) 4,470 11bb
MP1 4,334 11bb
MP2 2,131 5bb
CO 1,525 4bb
BTN 16,566 41bb
SB 4,346 11bb
BB 1,730 4bb

Blinds: 200/400 Ante 50

Pre-Flop: (1,000, 8 players) Hero is UTG+1 Th 4s
1 fold, Hero raises to 800, 6 folds

Final Pot: 1,400

Hero wins 1,800 (net +950)

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Re: This hand made history?!

Post  REEBS77 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:39 pm

MP2, CO and BB are all 5bb stacks or less ... I will assume that you will call those guys' shoves and fold to the rest simply based on the pot odds you are given. Since you are showing us T4o here, that tells me that you do this with 100% of hands. So what would determine that our cards dont matter?

Since we are planning on calling three of the six opp's behind, we are effectively only bluffing through three opponents (same as being in CO kinda?). However, we are actually in the UTG+1 position, so our open will look strong, combined with the bb being super short and us being only 11 bb deep (most regs dont r/f even close to these stacks I find)... this will cause the big stacks to bluff shove almost never. So we can comfortably b/f to all those stacks and b/c the 5bb stacks...And really, we should do the same with atc up to any hands that we are okay calling off with vs the 11bb stacks.

The thing that boggles my mind is that we dont ever talk about opening ranges in terms of "value" or "bluffs"... even once it gets past an opening range, we ask "am i betting for value or as a bluff here?" ... but your opening range is a blended range from the two I guess? So here, we are essentially separating the two?



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Re: This hand made history?!

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:15 pm

REEBS77 wrote:

The thing that boggles my mind is that we dont ever talk about opening ranges in terms of "value" or "bluffs"... even once it gets past an opening range, we ask "am i betting for value or as a bluff here?" ... but your opening range is a blended range from the two I guess? So here, we are essentially separating the two?



Most of what you wrote is good and correct, also that I don't really consider all that, mostly just look at the blinds and then raise.

I'm on atc here but thats not just about the stack sizes, i know the field enough to adjust more than that, but still, i'm prob raising a lot always here. Until the kids catch on to what im ACTUALLY doing.

As for the question, no one every deals with that and they are scared too. Its religion.

Your question is actually ground breaking IMO.

If I asked a good reg why we raise, most of the time they will shut down, almost change the subject. Much like you might if I asked you this question.

WITHOUT antes we often raise for pure value post flop, sometimes for value pre (4bet get it in), less often to steal the blinds (no postflop), sometimes to steal blinds sometimes but to win postflop if called.


WITH antes we often raise to steal the blinds, certainly thats bluff, if we get jammed on we fold a lot, thats also bluff, but if we have aces, we might call and thats value.

Sometimes we have a post flop hand, thats part bluff (blinds), and part value (postflop play).

Sometimes we have a poor post flop hand but a good steal spot, but we can still bluff the flop enough to make up for the poor postflop hand equity (showdown value, combating reverse implied odds).

Sometimes we raise to pick up the blinds as bluff because we fold to bigger stacks and call smaller stack because of the odds.

Its best to stop there and never name these things.


You are pointing at mostly bluff vs big stacks and calling vs short stacks. But certainly in cash we might raise/4bet shove vs a loose player with TT, but fold vs a 3bet from a rock oop.

So we can open a hand as a bluff vs some, but value vs others.




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