Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

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Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:15 pm


villain 6k hands 17/14


No Limit Holdem Tournament
PokerStars
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$3.19+$0.31

Stacks:
UTG 12,015 40bb
UTG+1 6,145 20bb
MP1 8,732 29bb
MP2 5,180 17bb
MP3 7,907 26bb
Hero (CO) 8,766 29bb
BTN 3,300 11bb
SB 1,710 6bb
BB 11,326 38bb

Blinds: 150/300 Ante 25

Pre-Flop: (675, 9 players) Hero is CO Jc Ah
UTG raises to 600, 4 folds, Hero???
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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  Superman on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:00 pm

Well, our villain is a bit deeper here, so he can fold more...we have shorties behind us. If we flat here, there is very well going to be some extra money in the pot by the time we see the flop..probably going to be regardless.

We are too short to 3bet fold, and I think, like the other thread, it's no good anyway. So..flat, fold or jam.

He sees those shorties too, and knows he is likely gonna have to show his hand..lends some credence to strength, albeit not a lot..

I like the jam, he is showing strength that doesn't necessarily have to be there against the shorty range..we have some fold equity if the shorts don't call, and he has better odds to call with his weaker holdings if the shorties do call..

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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:55 pm

Something we should note hear, and I still have some small leaks in this regard. When another player enters the pot, yes he gets better pot odds, but his hand equity goes down significantly since its three way. So he doesn't really get better odds that way.

I don't actually like jamming so much because of the same issues in the last hand. We certainly have more fold equity, but 30bbs is a little much too jam into a tight range. If he was mp its not so bad, but even though he folds a little we are very crushed when he calls. I might then do it with 22-25bbs if that makes sense, but vs an ep min, 30bbs is just kinda making him play perfect.

Keep in mind my 3bet shove range isn't exactly know as being the tightest.

He does see the shorties too, however this will make his range a little tighter pre....
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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:53 am

Will it make him tighter pre for sure though? Or is he good enough to know that the shorties will make everyone think he is tighter than he really is?

I don't know...I think part of my problem is that I really don't respect a 3 dollar game..and yes, I know I should, but, in the back of my mind I keep thinking...if he is so good, why isn't he playing higher stakes?

And while the shorties might take some of his equity down, it really doesn't matter, as long as he beats you, he still gains 19bb or so, thus a gain of 8bb overall? So.,.thinking that way, probably less enticing to him..which might make him fold a little tighter?

And yeah, I guess when taking your game into account..it is likely a wider call for him..

Ok.. If it's you, we fold..if it's me, we jam Razz

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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:44 am

Superman wrote:Will it make him tighter pre for sure though? Or is he good enough to know that the shorties will make everyone think he is tighter than he really is?
No he's not on that level, and we can pretty much assume that no one is. I have a few players I know of that are, but they really have to have a good read on us and not prob mass tabling to adjust like that.

Its not that he's not capable of it, but if he make thats adjustment and is wrong he looses. If he doesn't make that adjustment he doesn't get that gain but he doesn't lose anything, in fact he still gains ev, just not optimal ev. Not sure I said that clear.


I don't know...I think part of my problem is that I really don't respect a 3 dollar game..and yes, I know I should, but, in the back of my mind I keep thinking...if he is so good, why isn't he playing higher stakes?
Ha. Maybe he spent his money trying to move up in mtts and is rebuilding his roll Wink All you made an incorrect assumption I think in asking that, we don't know that he isn't playing higher stakes as well. Many top players play 180s, either for making videos, adding tables, or just having fun. I do have 6k hands tho, so hes obv a 180 reg, but people under estimate 180 players, the field is full of regs some of which make close to 10k profit a month.


And while the shorties might take some of his equity down, it really doesn't matter, as long as he beats you, he still gains 19bb or so, thus a gain of 8bb overall? So.,.thinking that way, probably less enticing to him..which might make him fold a little tighter?
Ya I gotta repeat this one because I don't think thats fully true. When we choose to flip with someone its often because we have AQ and we are a 47% dog vs villains range, but the antes and blinds make up for it. Poker is about thin edges and when you have to fight 3 way for the blinds often the race for the rest of our stack isn't worth it. I used to make that mistake a lot ( I still prob do in certain spots.

And yeah, I guess when taking your game into account..it is likely a wider call for him..

Ok.. If it's you, we fold..if it's me, we jam Razz
Ya thats key that you point out the difference in our images, and I don't mind as much if you jam.
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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:52 am

This is a spot where again I just can't fold AJo.

What I choose to do here is to CIB 3bet.

We've already ruled everything else, but we have a super strong hand, and we also do have super post flop skills (maybe right? we'll see?) So we CIB, if the blinds shove and he shoves or flats, we can feel like hes at the top of his range and fold.

If he shoves in that spot or when no one else 4bet shoves, we can safely fold. What about the odds? We only leave a small 3bet out there and whats most important is that we have a hand that is super dominated by his 4bet jam range. I'd almost feel worse folding JTs or A5s, AJo just won't flip well vs a nutted range.

So if everyone fold to him, we have a fairly nutted looking 3bet. Here's the catch: he's generally going to 4bet shove his strong hands, flat his medium hands, and fold his air. So we see a flop vs villain and he has a weak range OOP. PWNVILLE.



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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:55 am

Now if villain flats and plays bad post flop, we will continue to do this with an extended value range like KQs, JTs maybe, mid pairs etc.

If villain FOLDS we will switch to a polarized range and start doing this with Junk hands usually Ax and Kx (blockers). Might even take out some our nut hands and shove or flat them if we don't think he'll notice.

Then later if he shoves and we fold to his 4bet, or we showdown K2o, we can only cib 3bet nut hands.

So what happens is you get a new type of 'good' reg, who is very great at playing a robot TAG style and even knows how to take notes and adjust but they can't adapt to creative playes, and people who can create pseudo ranges and mixed strategies.
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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:57 am

JodaB. wrote:Ha. Maybe he spent his money trying to move up in mtts and is rebuilding his roll Wink All you made an incorrect assumption I think in asking that, we don't know that he isn't playing higher stakes as well. Many top players play 180s, either for making videos, adding tables, or just having fun. I do have 6k hands tho, so hes obv a 180 reg, but people under estimate 180 players, the field is full of regs some of which make close to 10k profit a month.


yep, I know it's an incorrect assumption..but I know I get that feeling. I have a hard time playing 5 and 10 buck mtt's because of it. (forcing myself to play midnight madness right now without being a spewtard for this very reason)

And while the shorties might take some of his equity down, it really doesn't matter, as long as he beats you, he still gains 19bb or so, thus a gain of 8bb overall? So.,.thinking that way, probably less enticing to him..which might make him fold a little tighter?\

Ya I gotta repeat this one because I don't think thats fully true. When we choose to flip with someone its often because we have AQ and we are a 47% dog vs villains range, but the antes and blinds make up for it. Poker is about thin edges and when you have to fight 3 way for the blinds often the race for the rest of our stack isn't worth it. I used to make that mistake a lot ( I still prob do in certain spots.

Point taken for sure..and it makes sense.



Last edited by Superman on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:00 am

You keep saying CIB 3 bet?? wtf is CIB? am I just brain-dead tonight?

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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:03 am

Superman wrote:You keep saying CIB 3 bet?? wtf is CIB? am I just brain-dead tonight?
Click it Back!

Boom pancakes sunny

Min 3bet Wink
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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:13 am

lol geek

Ok, yeah, alright. that's basically what my original 3 bet was...a min +. think I said 6800 instead of 6400? ignore this..was thinking of other thread

There was a song about this..don't remember the name...lyrics went something like "pseu, pseu, pseudo" ( I am dancing to it now..)

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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:14 am

Superman wrote:lol geek

Ok, yeah, alright. that's basically what my original 3 bet was...a min +. think I said 6800 instead of 6400?

There was a song about this..don't remember the name...lyrics went something like "pseu, pseu, pseudo" ( I am dancing to it now..)
not sure what thread ur in but a cib min 3bet here is 900 cheers
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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:17 am

JodaB. wrote:
Superman wrote:lol geek

Ok, yeah, alright. that's basically what my original 3 bet was...a min +. think I said 6800 instead of 6400?

There was a song about this..don't remember the name...lyrics went something like "pseu, pseu, pseudo" ( I am dancing to it now..)
not sure what thread ur in but a cib min 3bet here is 900 cheers

well if i could have scrolled back to the original message or multi quoted it....I would have noticed that I was thinking of the other thread. bom

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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:13 am

I found this on the blue fire blog, i think this can help us CIB 3bet.
Most people 3-bet to pot. Take a little in position. Give a little out of position. This makes perfect sense out of position in capitalizing on good folding equity or pushing one's superior preflop equity, but in position why does it have to be to pot? Just like people are starting to figure out cbets don't always have to be 3/4 pot, I don't see any reason 3-bets in position *must* be this large.

I think 3-bet CIB probably deserves a distinction since it's pretty fundamentally different than 3-betting to, say, 2/3 pot.

There are a few advantages here:

1. No one ever folds to them. This means that people opening 20% of their hands from the CO are now playing all 20% out of position against you on the button. This is a massive range of hands to be playing out of position.

2. It bloats the pot just enough to be able to comfortably go bet-bet-bet and get all-in with 100bb stacks if you want or need to.

3. I seem to be getting 4-bet rarely. I think this is because people are getting such good preflop odds they don't see any reason to 4-bet bluff since they assume calling getting those odds is never incorrect, and because they're afraid I will call it more often since it's less of my effective stack (which is true).

4. I can still call a 4-bet if the situation necessitates it and play in position with more money behind than standard 4-bet situations.

5. It can discourage a pretty loose player from overcalling and making you play multiway with hands that don't do well multiway.

6. It can slightly discourage a squeeze, particularly from shortstacks.

7. If a shortstack does shove behind you aren't committed to calling their shove with, say, 9T, whereas you generally would be if you had 3-bet to a standard size.

8. I steal initiative.


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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:42 am

thats somewhat near, this stuff comes with a caution warning though.
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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:47 am

Here is a CIB 3bet vs a rando

No Limit Holdem Tournament
PokerStars
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$3.19+$0.31

Stacks:
UTG 17,274 14bb
UTG+1 11,691 10bb
MP1 27,499 23bb
MP2 22,586 19bb
MP3 11,316 9bb
CO 23,656 20bb
Hero (BTN) 20,685 17bb
SB 18,938 16bb
BB 11,980 10bb

Blinds: 600/1,200 Ante 125

Pre-Flop: (2,925, 9 players) Hero is BTN Ah Ac
2 folds, MP1 raises to 2,615, 3 folds, Hero raises to 4,030, SB calls 3,430, 1 fold, MP1 calls 1,415

Flop: 8h 2d 3h (14,415, 3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets 3,555, SB folds, MP1 raises to 9,999, Hero goes all-in 16,530, MP1 calls 6,531

Turn: 7s (47,475, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: 8d (47,475, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: 47,475
Hero shows two pair, Aces and Eights
Ah Ac
MP1 shows two pair, Eights and Deuces
Ad 2h

Hero wins 47,475 (net +26,790)

SB lost 4,155
MP1 lost 20,685
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Re: Another 3 bet/flat/fold spot?

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:49 am

No Limit Holdem Tournament
PokerStars
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$3.19+$0.31

Stacks:
UTG 11,186 45bb
UTG+1 6,065 24bb
MP1 11,406 46bb
MP2 7,855 31bb
MP3 6,450 26bb
Hero (CO) 7,000 28bb
BTN 3,853 15bb
SB 3,325 13bb
BB 4,290 17bb

Blinds: 125/250 Ante 25

Pre-Flop: (600, 9 players) Hero is CO 9d 9s
2 folds, MP1 raises to 500, 2 folds, Hero raises to 750, 3 folds, MP1 calls 250

Flop: Ks 7s 3c (2,100, 2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets 875, MP1 folds

Final Pot: 2,100

Hero wins 2,975 (net +1,325)

MP1 lost 775
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