Question....

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Question....

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:00 pm

Hero open min raise button with 11 bbs, antes are in play

sb has 10bbs bb has 6bbs

sb folds bbs shoves

Hero calls

SB says he folded 66

BB says 'I would have folded that to if i were u, I'm at the bottom of my range but I had to call'

Whats the most profitable hand we can show here?

Whats the most profitable hand we are hoping bb will show for us?


Last edited by JodaB. on Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Question....

Post  REEBS77 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:26 am

JodaB. wrote:Hero open min raise button with 11 bbs, antes are in play

sb has 10bbs bb has 6bbs

sb folds bbs shoves

Hero calls

SB says he folded 66

BB says 'I would have folded that to if i were, I'm at the bottom of my range but I had to call'

Whats the most profitable hand we can show here?

Whats the most profitable hand we are hoping bb will show for us?


Kinda guessing ... If we set up sb with 66, bb with 62o, then 77 has more equity than AA What a Face ... so I dont think this is the correct answer to your exact question cus bb will not have 62o often, but interesting anyways:

77 - I tend to think AA would be most profitable vs his entire range.

62o
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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:07 pm

REEBS77 wrote:


Kinda guessing ... If we set up sb with 66, bb with 62o, then 77 has more equity than AA What a Face ... so I dont think this is the correct answer to your exact question cus bb will not have 62o often, but interesting anyways:

77 - I tend to think AA would be most profitable vs his entire range.

62o
OOPs forgot to mention, this is NLHE Wink
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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:12 pm

Prob no one else will give it a shot? Maybe you want to try again before I give my ridiculous answer?
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Re: Question....

Post  REEBS77 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:21 pm

JodaB. wrote:Prob no one else will give it a shot? Maybe you want to try again before I give my ridiculous answer?

did i not understand the question properly?

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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:24 pm

REEBS77 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:Prob no one else will give it a shot? Maybe you want to try again before I give my ridiculous answer?

did i not understand the question properly?

ya i think we're just playing different games maybe?

Hint is I'm not just gonna ask whats the most profitable hands and the answer is aces
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Re: Question....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:08 pm

maybe KK & K5o

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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:14 pm

Y'all might be mad at me for this one.

anyways ill give a hint: your both waaaaaaaaaaay off
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Re: Question....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:34 pm

7c7d, 6c6d

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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:56 pm

Obv the posts after this will be spoilers too
Spoiler:
Our most profitable hand will be something around 62o or 72o etc, we are hoping villains shows AA for us to have maximized our profits
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Re: Question....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:09 pm

Alot of explaining to do, oh master yoda you have! Razz

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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:11 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Alot of explaining to do, oh master yoda you have! Razz
think about (or talk about) how you would play each hand in the deck vs these opponents now that we know Villain showed Aces.
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Re: Question....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:22 pm

ohhhh because cards are irrelevant here we min raise to induce, instead of open shoving and losing value.

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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:26 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:ohhhh because cards are irrelevant here we min raise to induce, instead of open shoving and losing value.
but I suggested our most profitable hand is 72o, certainly we don't want to induce action for that?
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Re: Question....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:35 pm

Hmmmm raise folding here is wrong in my mind. I was originally going to say I would open shove here. Is it to give us a chance to win the pot for a cheaper price. This goes back to your infinite thread.

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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:38 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Hmmmm raise folding here is wrong in my mind. I was originally going to say I would open shove here. Is it to give us a chance to win the pot for a cheaper price. This goes back to your infinite thread.
talk us through the hand tho, we min raise 74o, what happens? how often?
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Re: Question....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:11 pm

even in the worst case scenario I think he ships only 18% of the time (22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo), we have the right odds to call.

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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:18 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:even in the worst case scenario I think he ships only 18% of the time (22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo), we have the right odds to call.
not sure who you are talking about but we have the sb and bb ranges because they told them to us.
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Re: Question....

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:47 pm

ok we min raise, and we know he is only shipping aces which only happen .5% of the time, we can fold because we only have 15% equity and we need approx 25%. knowing that he is only shipping aces we win the pot 99.5% of the time uncontested.

I only assigned a range because I was being realistic! even the worst players will ship wider

thx for being patient with me

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Re: Question....

Post  REEBS77 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:50 pm

Ok so I'm guessing that ur saying the hands at the bottom of our range will be the most profitable for us since nobody else will be raising them and villain will shove way too tight. If villain has AA then they are that much further away from calling optimally (maybe). Kinda along the lines of yoda bux?

You were missing a word or two in original post about what the bb said and it's a bit confusing tho.
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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:15 pm

REEBS77 wrote:Ok so I'm guessing that ur saying the hands at the bottom of our range will be the most profitable for us since nobody else will be raising them and villain will shove way too tight. If villain has AA then they are that much further away from calling optimally (maybe). Kinda along the lines of yoda bux?

You were missing a word or two in original post about what the bb said and it's a bit confusing tho.
ya its jbux, not sure if i said it right but, they fold always and we pick up monies
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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:24 am

REEBS77 wrote:Ok so I'm guessing that ur saying the hands at the bottom of our range will be the most profitable for us since nobody else will be raising them and villain will shove way too tight. If villain has AA then they are that much further away from calling optimally (maybe). Kinda along the lines of yoda bux?

You were missing a word or two in original post about what the bb said and it's a bit confusing tho.
Ya i missed the word you i think. If villains are folding 55 and bb is folding everything else but AA, then min raising with ATC is profitable. BB has 6bbs which makes it 2bb to call (ATC), so the most optimal play is to min call ATC vs the bb.

So by min raise calling 72o or the very worst hand we make the most profit OVERALL.

hope that wasn't to lame but its really important we see poker this way and not with just our hand.
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Re: Question....

Post  REEBS77 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:02 am

Ya I totally misinterpreted what you were asking. lol I didnt realize you were saying that the bb folds KK, etc. I see what you are saying, but its def a lame scenario since there is no villian on the face of the planet who would fold QQ, KK, AK, etc.

Overall I see your point though.

#JBUXFTW
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Re: Question....

Post  JodaB. on Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:09 pm

REEBS77 wrote:but its def a lame scenario since there is no villian on the face of the planet who would fold QQ, KK, AK, etc.
This we want to avoid doing like the plague imo. This is like a lot of people who say nash ranges aren't important to know because your opponents never play nash. A situation like this may help us to see the game for what it REALLY is. And any time we see the game more for what is, we are able to make more optimal decisions (profitable).

This example shows that the hand we have represents the entire range above it. We need to understand that the bottom hand in a +ev range is the most profitable not AA. I'm sure there are others who know this, but of all the time I've played and the 2k or so games a month, I've never noted a single reg as understanding this, and they will slowly fall behind to those that do.

A lot of the things I say, and my 'views' on poker, will seem slightly eccentric or something for now, but I'm positive that as the game progresses it will be clear that this is really what poker is and much of what people think it is now is simply religion.

It took quite the conversation with BTP before he saw value in cib 3betting, and since then his game has gone through the roof, not from me, but just because hes out of a thinking rut. But now I'm trying to explain to him that checking = betting 0 and he tells me its stupid and has no importance ;p
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Re: Question....

Post  Superman on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:55 pm

JodaB. wrote: But now I'm trying to explain to him that checking = betting 0 and he tells me its stupid and has no importance ;p

I think I know what you are saying here...but I also feel that the ONLY time this is true, is if your opponent is good enough to recognize the very same.

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Re: Question....

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