Hand Reading

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Hand Reading

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:12 pm

OK, I think I have found my biggest leak!

After watching and going through a few hands, my biggest leak must be ranging and making +ev decisions based on the range I have assigned to my opponent. I feel like I know a bit about ranging, but in a very unorganized way. I would like to start from the beginning on how to properly assign a range, modify a range and exploit a range. I tend to bounce around from thread to thread, so in effort to completely understand this, I will be only posting in this thread until i get it.





Last edited by RWPKRPLR1 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:59 pm

Its pretty simple it works like this. First you learn ABC poker, or TAG they are really the same thing. Playing tight hands and just playing basic, raise for value, fold when you don't have it.

Once you learn this you will have a base range to go from. So if someone plays a hand looser than your base range, then they are 'loose', if you see someone fold a hand from your base range then they are 'tight'. This is why its important to grasp fundamental poker first.

So you see how important a proper base range is, because if evaluate everyone based on your range and you are too tight, then you will incorrectly asses there range.

So we play poker in an unexploitable (tight) style, until we see ACTUAL evidence our opponent does not play like this. Then as we take notes on how they differ, we can slower begin to exploit these tendencies.

Even a super good player will play conservative vs a new table, even if he knows hes the best player there.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:03 pm

Also its a great question and you should def get to the bottom of, but I doubt its your biggest leak Wink

So what is most important is our OWN ranges are correct, this will help our hand reading the most.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:25 am

Ok that being said, how should I layout my base ranges? I think I should have multiple base ranges for deepstack and shortstacked, maybe even mid stack. Is this correct?

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:47 am

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Ok that being said, how should I layout my base ranges? I think I should have multiple base ranges for deepstack and shortstacked, maybe even mid stack. Is this correct?
Think of it as pre ante and ante.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  REEBS77 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:10 am

RW, do you happen to have TPE membership?

If you do, I strongly recommend Andrew Brokos vids. He has changed the game for me with just a few vids. He lays it out on a word pad beside his replayer and it just seems to hit home with me.

Basically what Yoda said above is good re ranges, but really doesnt help you too much postflop. Brokos says to categorize post flop hands into three categories:

Monsters, Marginal Hands, & Air/Draws. He actually types the hands that correspond to those preflop ranges based on the board. The hands for each category will change, based on action and the cards on the board. So the hands that are monsters on the flop, wont necessarily still be monsters on the turn, etc.

He focuses on trying to eliminate one grouping of hands that villian can just never have. This will allow you to play a lot more optimally.

Check it out if you can.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:54 am

REEBS77 wrote:RW, do you happen to have TPE membership?

If you do, I strongly recommend Andrew Brokos vids. He has changed the game for me with just a few vids. He lays it out on a word pad beside his replayer and it just seems to hit home with me.

Basically what Yoda said above is good re ranges, but really doesnt help you too much postflop. Brokos says to categorize post flop hands into three categories:

Monsters, Marginal Hands, & Air/Draws. He actually types the hands that correspond to those preflop ranges based on the board. The hands for each category will change, based on action and the cards on the board. So the hands that are monsters on the flop, wont necessarily still be monsters on the turn, etc.

He focuses on trying to eliminate one grouping of hands that villian can just never have. This will allow you to play a lot more optimally.

Check it out if you can.


I did have a membership, but I canceled it so I can catch up on the videos I downloaded. Going to sign up again for a month and go download crazy. I will find that video when I do. thx! For now I'm going to continue with the guidance of joda.


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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:46 pm

Ya that vid sounds good, and I like reebs advice, I'm gonna add something crucial.

Its correct to say we make a more accurate decision when we take out a part of villains range.

Fundamentally, we should not seek to make any division or separating of villains range. Instead we should observe 'choicelessly' with out any such prejudice whatsoever.

So the first step will be to take the ENTIRE deck in relation to the board, so we can truly observe villains range for with it really is.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:21 pm

Also I don't know if we are capable of finding our own biggest leaks Wink

best thing to do is save a notpad file titled hand histories, then when you play copy and past any hand you have a question about, then post them daily to get feed back on any spot you aren't 100% sure.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:20 pm

JodaB. wrote:Ya that vid sounds good, and I like reebs advice, I'm gonna add something crucial.

Its correct to say we make a more accurate decision when we take out a part of villains range.

Fundamentally, we should not seek to make any division or separating of villains range. Instead we should observe 'choicelessly' with out any such prejudice whatsoever.

So the first step will be to take the ENTIRE deck in relation to the board, so we can truly observe villains range for with it really is.

Makes sense.. I'm going to re-activate my account this weekend and watch the video. When I'm done watching the video, I will be back in this thread to discuss it with you and reebs.

JodaB. wrote:Also I don't know if we are capable of finding our own biggest leaks Wink

best thing to do is save a notpad file titled hand histories, then when you play copy and past any hand you have a question about, then post them daily to get feed back on any spot you aren't 100% sure.

I do this now, but I just forget to post my hands. I will make it a point to post my hand right after my sessions.

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:37 pm

haven't be able to get back onto TPE just yet. (fucken paypal!) so I have been reading what I can about base PFR ranges, but there are so many different lines for creating base PFR ranges, I'm getting confused. I have the to basics figured out 2.6% and 5%, but now when I think about a 10% range I'm getting confused...


lets say we're in the ante's, we put the villain on a 10% range, what range would we put him on without seeing and of his previous hands? and why?

a)22+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+

b)88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo

c)66+,A2s+,KQs,QJs,AQo+


I know nothing is exact, but I really need to understand preflop ranges, so I can work on post flop deductions. Does that video cover assigning preflop ranges?

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:28 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:haven't be able to get back onto TPE just yet. (fucken paypal!) so I have been reading what I can about base PFR ranges, but there are so many different lines for creating base PFR ranges, I'm getting confused. I have the to basics figured out 2.6% and 5%, but now when I think about a 10% range I'm getting confused...


lets say we're in the ante's, we put the villain on a 10% range, what range would we put him on without seeing and of his previous hands? and why?

a)22+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+

b)88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo

c)66+,A2s+,KQs,QJs,AQo+


I know nothing is exact, but I really need to understand preflop ranges, so I can work on post flop deductions. Does that video cover assigning preflop ranges?
no sense in putting villain on a number and then converting it to a hand. Don't worry about the math so much.

This is what I was talking about when I said first we must consider the whole deck and where it fits. We don't say villain can't have k7s or something, we just say its not often.

So if I raise button and a fish flats the bb, hes going to have any pair any bw most aces, some suited connectors and a bunch of junk.

This is really obvious but people just won't believe me for a awhile Wink

Don't worry about a narrowing range, just consider the whole deck and you'll get your answer. maybe put of a hh where you are having troubles with range.

For example you raise pre from cu and sb flats. Flop is A56 and bet and he check raises. His value hands are AA 55 66 56 A5 A6, hes drawing with 87s and obviously less often 34, less often has mid pairs, everything else is air. Does he have 72o in his range prob not, he prob just has a little air. This is what we want to do, we should try to get more accurate than this...its pretty obvious we can call with a decent ace and have to fold the rest of our hands.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  REEBS77 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:33 pm

I think the video series I was referring to starts with post flop, but there could be some on preflop in the first vid, I forget.

Yea nothing is ever set in stone, but I think rather than looking at his hud stats and saying hes opening 10% so its 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo cus thats what stove says, I think we need to be a bit more dynamic than that. I never base someones opening range solely on the pfr%, rather I assign what I think they are opening based on position and stack size and skill level, then check pfr to verify my answer (assuming enough of a sample).

So if its someone decent utg with a 15-25bb stack, I would lean more towards 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo and probably tighter depending on villain.

If its someone decent utg with a 50bb stack or something, then I would be more likely to include the small pairs and those other hands that rely on implied odds.

Then if its a fish that Ive noticed limping a lot and they open for a raise utg, I weight it differently again.

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:35 pm

REEBS77 wrote:I think the video series I was referring to starts with post flop, but there could be some on preflop in the first vid, I forget.

Yea nothing is ever set in stone, but I think rather than looking at his hud stats and saying hes opening 10% so its 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo cus thats what stove says, I think we need to be a bit more dynamic than that. I never base someones opening range solely on the pfr%, rather I assign what I think they are opening based on position and stack size and skill level, then check pfr to verify my answer (assuming enough of a sample).

So if its someone decent utg with a 15-25bb stack, I would lean more towards 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo and probably tighter depending on villain.

If its someone decent utg with a 50bb stack or something, then I would be more likely to include the small pairs and those other hands that rely on implied odds.

Then if its a fish that Ive noticed limping a lot and they open for a raise utg, I weight it differently again.

Yes thats all good stuff Reebs.

Other thing I forget to mention is we have to get our ranges sharp first. So If I raise 20% from the cutoff and a player raise 25% I can say "well hes a little looser than me" We really need this baseline of our own ranges.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:38 pm


"Don't worry about a narrowing range, just consider the whole deck and you'll get your answer. maybe put of a hh where you are having troubles with range."

Ok I will try this approach next game.

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:07 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
"Don't worry about a narrowing range, just consider the whole deck and you'll get your answer. maybe put of a hh where you are having troubles with range."

Ok I will try this approach next game.
Ya because we are used to cash games where hud% over 10k hands give us an accurate depiction or our opponents ranges. We don't need this in tournaments and we never get it anyways. You just need a general understand of your villains ranges and most decisions will become clear.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:31 pm

REEBS77 wrote:RW, do you happen to have TPE membership?

If you do, I strongly recommend Andrew Brokos vids. He has changed the game for me with just a few vids. He lays it out on a word pad beside his replayer and it just seems to hit home with me.

Basically what Yoda said above is good re ranges, but really doesnt help you too much postflop. Brokos says to categorize post flop hands into three categories:

Monsters, Marginal Hands, & Air/Draws. He actually types the hands that correspond to those preflop ranges based on the board. The hands for each category will change, based on action and the cards on the board. So the hands that are monsters on the flop, wont necessarily still be monsters on the turn, etc.

He focuses on trying to eliminate one grouping of hands that villian can just never have. This will allow you to play a lot more optimally.

Check it out if you can.


Was going through my TPE videos I downloaded and I found this series! yipee I will be back study

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:18 pm

REEBS I'm 3/4 of the way done the series. OMG this series is gold! So far it makes so much more sense to break a hand down into Monsters, Marginal and Air/draws. I used to just gauge players actions as weak or strong and based my play on that. With this procedure I'm going through all the possibilities before I act. I'm still a tiny bit confused some of the time, but I'm not to concerned right now because I know in time it will become second nature if I keep applying it in game and to HH reviews. When I get a hand that really confuses me I will post it here for us to breakdown.

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:58 am

I just wanna make sure this video doesn't focus on cutting hands out of peoples ranges. its going to be different of me to say maybe be we want to look at the deck as a whole and resist the urge to try to cut out parts. I wonder if that conflicts with the video series, i haven't seen it.
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  REEBS77 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:38 am

JodaB. wrote:I just wanna make sure this video doesn't focus on cutting hands out of peoples ranges. its going to be different of me to say maybe be we want to look at the deck as a whole and resist the urge to try to cut out parts. I wonder if that conflicts with the video series, i haven't seen it.

I don't understand how you range a villain if you are not cutting out parts of the deck? I mean when you state a villain's opening range, you are effectively cutting out parts of the deck. Large parts usually.

Its the same concept, only it focuses on post flop.

I will send you the videos tonite on Skype if you want.

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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:34 pm

REEBS77 wrote:
JodaB. wrote:I just wanna make sure this video doesn't focus on cutting hands out of peoples ranges. its going to be different of me to say maybe be we want to look at the deck as a whole and resist the urge to try to cut out parts. I wonder if that conflicts with the video series, i haven't seen it.

I don't understand how you range a villain if you are not cutting out parts of the deck? I mean when you state a villain's opening range, you are effectively cutting out parts of the deck. Large parts usually.

Its the same concept, only it focuses on post flop.

I will send you the videos tonite on Skype if you want.

Ya thats what I thought, I dont' agree with doing that. I dont' agree with the mental approach, I believe in the opposite. I knew we missed this slight point. this gonna be cray!
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:17 pm

REEBS77 wrote:
I don't understand how you range a villain if you are not cutting out parts of the deck? I mean when you state a villain's opening range, you are effectively cutting out parts of the deck. Large parts usually.



This is gonna drive you nuts!!! <What a Face>

So Imagine we are in position and are check raised on the flop

So for a Kxx dry flop and we have QQ we should see this:




For a KTx rb flop with 99 we would see this:


For a 953rb flop we have KQs:




These are unbaised views of the deck vs these flops, if we try to cut this down we begin to act on prejudices and biases. We might cut out the wrong hands, or the wrong range, or perhaps we should cut out a certain range but we are looking for it.

I would say you don't cut it down, but I think we need to see the deck like this as a first step.

FUCT!!!!
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:19 pm

POTY cheers
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:20 pm

Esoteric poker mutha fuckas!
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Re: Hand Reading

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:31 pm

JodaB. wrote:POTY cheers

cheers
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Re: Hand Reading

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