cash . vs mtt's

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cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:05 pm

id like to start this discussion on how u think strategy and what the overall difference is between cash games and mtt's

gogogogo

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:34 pm

Put this in the strat section you wierdo!

And lets hear your opinion first. Don't try to be right, just let out what you know, some of it will be right, some of it not quite developed. Maybe some of it wrong. But its good to try to explain your thoughts as long as your not afraid to be wrong vs a better player.
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:50 pm

ya, i couldnt find the right section

i very recently took up smoking grass at night to fall asleep and im way to fucked up to write coherently right now.

no idea how u do this all the time

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:34 am

Ok

there are many differences between cash games and mtt's.. ill start with the obvious

structure, game play, regulars, skill level, ROI, bank roll management.

Every single decision you make in cash games is actual $$$ won or lost .. i.e floating a flop in an MTT and folding turn is -chips .. in cash games its literal $$$

I really want to finish this post later, I got some things to do, ill get into strat and that sort of stuff when I get back from my appointments

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:14 am

My buddy who I lived with in Vancouver who plays high stakes PLO/NL took the time to write me this email last night.

thought maybe you would find this interesting nick.


I think thats your biggest thing is getting down on yourself, but with poker, I think you are very young in your career and you also need to re-analyze everything and improve your profitability. I made mistakes but I still have the profitability habits I need to succeed, but you're so young that I dont think youve developed that discipline yet.

It takes time, you have to continually make good decisions and resist temptations to play with regulars for too long, or play too high for your bankroll, until it becomes engrained in you as a poker player. If you dont do that, I think you will struggle forever like Brian Giles has. You absolutely HAVE HAVE HAVE to develop good discipline (game selection, bankroll management, some level of tilt control, we're all gonna tilt until the end of time that inevitable). This is the most important thing along with fundamental skill. I grade myself if I was comparing myself to all the 400NL and up grinders all the way to high stakes, hmmm, I'd probably put myself in the 50% tile in the raw skill category. So half of everyone is better than me I'd say, and to give myself a grade I'd say Im a B or B+. Wer're obviously A+ if comparing to ALL poker players.

But when I'm sober and healthy as Ive been most of the 8 years I've played poker, I think I am like an A+++++++ in the discipline category. I'd much rather have A+++++ discipline and a C in skill than an A in skill and C in discpline hands down! And I know for a fact that is correct logic from experience. Please take what Ive said as this is info I would love to have gotten when I was 24 years old.

PS: ALLLLLLLLL THE SIGNIFICANT PROFIT YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE IN THE LONG RUN FROM THE GAME OF POKER WILL COME FROM THE POCKETS OF FISH (aka BAD PLAYERS, HIGH VPIPS) MICHAEL-MENTS!!!!!!! I have a 5 million hand database proving it. If you fully believe 100% that that is true, I guarantee you start making better decisions at the tables.

PSPS: A SLIGHT LOSING REG OR EVEN A MODERATE LOSING REG IS NOT A FISH!!!!!!

To qualify as a fish you must lose a bear minimum 5 bigbets(BB)/100 hands in my opinion. The majority of my profit obviously comes from the higher ones (-20BB). But I'd say considering opportunity cost, at any given online peak poker hour of the day, there is no reason you shouldnt be sitting with atleast two players who lose over 20BB/100.
The biggest fish over a sample size that can claim to be accurate fall into the -40BB/100, no more than that usually. Those are the monsters. There are a decent amount of these guys. The next level are the guys that lose 20BB or more/100 hands. This is the sweet spot in my opinion, there are plenty of these guys and at -20BB it is well worth your time. Why waste your time with a -7BB when theres a -20BB waiting to give you there money. I laugh at how simple this is but all I did was a rough calculation when I first started playing high stakes:

Example 1: 5/10 NL Holdem 6 max/ Table Name: Razzaments/ Total Players: 6

Player 1: Razz: regular with a 2 BB/100 winrate
Player 2: Bill: regular with a 2 BB/100 winrate
Player 3: Michael Frederick Gregory (thats you heh): regular with a 2 BB/100 winrate
Player 4: Jimmy 2/BB Winrate reg
Player 5: Bily 2/BB winrate Reg
PLAYER 6: BRIAN GILES: LOSING FISH WITH A -20BB/100. (hes -20BB not -20bb, u know the difference I assume)

So in this actually will never present itself exactly as displayed but you get the general picture. Sure you're going to be better or worse than some of the regs at the table, and tilt will happen with regs, but in general thats not going to make any significant difference in your results at the end of the year, because you're a reg and you're gonna tilt just like we all do another day.

Now here is my brilliant formula (aka advanced algorithm):

Brian Giles -20BB/100 at 5/10NL = Losing $400 every 100 hands played (ok that was tough)

Lets say for this example that at table Razzaments that 100 hands are being played per hour eventhough that is high, but just for simplicity we'll say 100.

If Brian Giles is losing $400 every hundred hands and there are 100 hands being played per hour at this table, than Brian Giles is losing 400 an hour: (phew that was tougher)

There are 5 regs of exact equal skill level and winrates. So heres the final part of the formula:

$400 lost by Brian distributed to 5 players per hour or 100 hands: 400/5= $80 (thats your profit at this table per 100 hands or hour)

Thats pretty amazing Mike, and yes obviously over the short term this will have little to no accuracy but I swear to you over the long term (months, a year), your actual profit at tables similar to that will be pretty damn close to $80. You better believe it. Now imagine being at 2 tables like this or 3, or 4 (that the max ive found dont get too excited). 2-3 is the average for mid high stakes. At low stakes Mike you should have a -15BB losing fish at all 4 of your tables, no question. I mean if you're playing with only a 5BB/100 loser then that profit goes down to $20 bucks/100hands. That sucks when there are bigger fish available It so simple it drives me crazy when people dont play with or effectively find fish to play with. If you hate money, or are playing poker only because you love the game and the competition and thrills of a lucky night or lucky river, then remove Brian from the game. You seriously have to think about what I just said there. If poker is your job, then you need to make the most profitable decisions possible for Company Michael Frederick (the same as any fortune 500 company would do!!!!! (i.e APPLE)

Table Razaments: 5 REGS (fish just left): Mikes playing really well better than all the regs even!!!!!: I dont feel like doing a calculation but against these 5 regs I'd imagine your profit would be like $5 every 100 hands if you are playing so amazingly well. Im just giving you best case scenario to make a point.

I know my email is absolutely obnoxious Mike, but ignore my ridiculousness and believe the simple info I have given you, and start trying to abide by it. Just start trying, itll take time, but as time goes on, you will base your decisions on these facts more and more. I hope atleast this helps a little bit eventhough you should and probably already know everything I've written, maybe you need it broken down like this
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:26 am

ya its a great little article.

One thing it didn't mention, if you have the worst win-rate at the table, it doesn't matter how hard you try, and doesn't matter how bad the fish is, you will lose your chips.
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:48 am

he followed with this

Like how would you feel if you invested in a company and they had options to make 5X the profit they were making with a simple adjustment, thus increasing your profit X5 since you hold stock in the company; BUT, they didnt make the adjustment, so you never saw 5X profit increase. You gotta think as yourself playing poker as a company and that helps. This isnt an ego contest of who has the biggest balls and most skill, its only about money. Even Mike Mkdermet in rounders said that, a somewhat inaccurate poker movie, but such an accurate quote.

Ok im done with the emails, I am in help mode until I start playing again so any advice I can give I am giving out now. I am very right and my habits when Im sober are amazing; thats the most arrogant thing you'll ever here me say Mike, but its true, and I tell you that because I want you to believe me and start improving your success.

PS: I am sober and hope to stay that way, and I hope any advice I have given you isnt discredited by the states you saw me in when I was drinking. If you want to talk more or look at my database for proof, I am happy to show it to you. You will see where my profit comes from. Hey, why dont you look at your database.
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:51 am

Just to follow up after my friend and I going back and forth;

I gotta get my own game in check.

also

Smoke's heading back to Van City for 2nd chance at going pro. I'll be playing cash. My friend is giving me the tools I need to get going, and I'm doing it right this time.

Hard work and dedication all the way!

VAMOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:54 am

Ya here the thing though.

Poker is about making optimal decisions. We strive to do this. The cards, the lights, the people, the money, the egos everything and more gets in the way of this obvious fact.

You sit down at a higher level table, and its clear you winrate will go to the better players, how silly is it if you think about it, that worse players play poker with better players?

Do we understand that no matter how hard we try, we cannot win money from better players?

I think you have always thought that you could.

So we have two ways to deal with this, we can look for worse players, or we can improve our game.

Can't we do both? Not really, because I think table selection is a skill that fits into improving our game. I will write a little about that in a separate post so you don't get lost in all the words.
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:10 pm

My issue with all this is we can only ever find weaker field in relation to our own game. So if we play at a 10nl level, we can never play at a 100nl level just by finding bad players.

As poker progress every field gets better, and if we don't improve with time, then we will no longer be at a 10nl level, but instead a 5nl level.

So if we spend time raising our level, from say 10nl up to 200nl, imagine how much money we make at 25nl and 100nl regardless of fish at the table.

You have to be careful that you life strategy doesn't become "I'm going to suck at poker, but I'm going to win money because I'm going to play shitty poker with shittier players"

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:15 pm

The other thing is, we need to be asking ourselves if we want to learn or win.

Think about all this, and remember I am not such a skilled poker player, but I do have a talent for teaching and helping others learn.

Do you want to beat players at 100nl, because you looked around all day for 1 drunk idiot?

Or do you want to sit down at any table you can find a know that you are the best player at the table?

This is the thing Smoke, you have a losing attitude, and you enjoy being told that you shouldn't work on your game you should use 'trick's' that avoid learning at all cost.

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:15 pm

JodaB. wrote:My issue with all this is we can only ever find weaker field in relation to our own game. So if we play at a 10nl level, we can never play at a 100nl level just by finding bad players.

As poker progress every field gets better, and if we don't improve with time, then we will no longer be at a 10nl level, but instead a 5nl level.

So if we spend time raising our level, from say 10nl up to 200nl, imagine how much money we make at 25nl and 100nl regardless of fish at the table.

You have to be careful that you life strategy doesn't become "I'm going to suck at poker, but I'm going to win money because I'm going to play shitty poker with shittier players"


I bumhunted and played mid stakes and shot took at high stakes when the right players were sitting and made serious money during the fall. We have a program that txts our phones when a huge fish sits and we rush to sit them.

I know u think im shit at poker nick but how can that be? I have numerous ships online, huge , tough field ships and have had success playing cash games. enough to support my necessities and lifestyle when I was out west, and that was expensive as shit.

not trying to be egotistical but obviously I have some sort of skill at this game... I can only get better with more work and from surrounding myself with the right people

I think you think that I dont put enough work into my game, and while that may be true, im not nearly as incompetent as you think I am. I mean, come on.



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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:21 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:

I gotta get my own game in check.
Ya thats a cool type saying!

Smoke's heading back to Van City for 2nd chance at going pro.
No this has nothing to do with going pro and neither were chances at going pro, you are ignoring going pro.

As a matter of fact I've never actually heard you say that you want to go pro, or that you are legit trying to go pro.

I'll be playing cash. My friend is giving me the tools I need to get going, and I'm doing it right this time.
No, your not. Doing it write would have been using this forum for the last six months to post, discuss, AND LEARN about poker in various discussions.

Instead you ignore all this and quit learning mtts/sngs and go to cash because someone told you that you can play like an idiot and refuse to get better and still win.

Do you really think that is a winning strategy in life?

Hard work and dedication all the way!
No not the way you are going, hard work and dedication implies actually doing the thing called learning.

It requires zero money, and zero miles moved. You don't do it by posting 'I'm going pro for the 2nd time' on the internet. And it doesn't involve tellign people "I'm going pro".

It's simple a combination of how much you study, how much you learn, and how well you are applying what you are learning.

So far you haven't started that journey.

VAMOOOOOOOOOOOOO
This is a emotion, and simple put when we are emotional, we are stupid.

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:29 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:
I bumhunted and played mid stakes and shot took at high stakes when the right players were sitting and made serious money during the fall. We have a program that txts our phones when a huge fish sits and we rush to sit them.
Sounds gay to me (which I'm fine with people being gay). Does this sound like poker, does it sound like pro?

I know u think im shit at poker nick but how can that be? I have numerous ships online, huge , tough field ships and have had success playing cash games. enough to support my necessities and lifestyle when I was out west, and that was expensive as shit.
I think you refuse to learn, therefore you can't be good. Anyone can ship tournaments, anyone can bumhunt.

not trying to be egotistical but obviously I have some sort of skill at this game... I can only get better with more work and from surrounding myself with the right people
Ya 'some sort of skill' but we don't get good at giving up on the game. And you will do well IF you surround yourself with the right people. But you have to listen to them and apply the knowledge aswell.

I think you think that I dont put enough work into my game, and while that may be true,
I want to be clear I'm saying you have already decided not to put ANY work into your game.

im not nearly as incompetent as you think I am. I mean, come on.
I am the one that claims you are very competent, capable of mastering this game. You and others refuse to acknowledge this. You have to say to yourself "I'm gonna get good at poker". Like golf.

But as far as your poker game goes, its ridiculous, you ignore strategy and play off the handle emotionally. You think the game is magic.

But worst of all you come on to forums spit out your actions just like at the table, and freak out when people tell you the optimal strategy.

Change your attitude, come to the forum with an empty slate, with an attitude to learn. If you continue to play and refuse to learn, then yes, sadly, that is incompetence.
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:49 pm

ok then.

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:33 pm

this has been bugging me all day

how come every single one of my posts has to be controversial and debated?

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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:18 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:this has been bugging me all day

how come every single one of my posts has to be controversial and debated?

should we pull your pants back up and talk strat?
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:23 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:this has been bugging me all day

how come every single one of my posts has to be controversial and debated?

should we pull your pants back up and talk strat?

Mad
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:44 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:
JodaB. wrote:
Smoker.B. wrote:this has been bugging me all day

how come every single one of my posts has to be controversial and debated?

should we pull your pants back up and talk strat?

Mad
no?
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  Smoker.B. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:57 pm

im fine... Im just scared because everything I type or say is wrong or you doubt me, or tell me im pulling my pants down, or that im H, or whatever

if u dont want me here, and dont like my posting style then maybe I shouldnt be here

id love to be, and get ur help and maybe help others along the way so they dont make the same mistakes I did, but if im a hassle then maybe ill find somewhere else if im a disturbance
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Re: cash . vs mtt's

Post  JodaB. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:39 pm

Smoker.B. wrote:im fine... Im just scared because everything I type or say is wrong or you doubt me, or tell me im pulling my pants down, or that im H, or whatever

if u dont want me here, and dont like my posting style then maybe I shouldnt be here

id love to be, and get ur help and maybe help others along the way so they dont make the same mistakes I did, but if im a hassle then maybe ill find somewhere else if im a disturbance
I know you think you are being new and creative by saying things like "I'd love to b blah blah...find somewhere else"

But for 10 years or so you come onto forums, whip your pants down and say "everyone look at me" and then when you get attention you go "wtf is everyone being like this to me"

So here in this thread you continue to do it.

Next post you will do it again, and again and again.

This forum is my charity of my own time to help others who want to improve strategy, you want to talk about bum hunting.

Heres the deal, don't post anymore unless you want to talk about strategy, the first non strat post your outa here for a day, next one is a week....

If you wanna fuss and just leave, thats fine, you can call me names too, but you get 1 post.
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