Re: Smoke: opening ranges

[Smoker.B.]

A) not trying to steal, but ill take it if it folds around
B) dont really want to get it in, got lots of beibers, wouldnt mind seeing a flop and playing post
C) to gain post flop--> I think this is what I want...

being UTG, I am repping a rly strong range with my open

i raised to 420 because 420 obv... I felt like that is obviously a great board to barrel at

not sure what else u need, let me know!

[JodaB.]

A) not trying to steal, but ill take it if it folds around
B) dont really want to get it in, got lots of beibers, wouldnt mind seeing a flop and playing post
C) to gain post flop--> I think this is what I want...

being UTG, I am repping a rly strong range with my open

Not interested in post so I deleted it.

Yes not so much to steal but with antes in play and two good blockers and short tight players we do actually steal some % of the time.

This is why kqo is an open here with antes but not early game with deep players and no antes. Makes sense right?

We can't get it in but there is one shorty we will call with good odds so there is a little of that too.

but yes mostly post flop kq flops well and is easy to play with a shorter stack even oop.

So what is your full range here?

[Smoker.B.]

do u mean my utg no ante range? or with antes?

[JodaB.]

do u mean my utg no ante range? or with antes?

are you asking me if we are talking about the hand you posted or some random hand that doesn't exist?

[Smoker.B.]

please...stop answering questions with a question

this is why people cant understand you

just be direct

you think asking questions promotes discussion, when all it does is make the whole process of getting to your point take ages!

do you want my UTG range with antes or without antes ? for this hand or in general?

[JodaB.]

do you want my UTG range with antes or without antes ? for this hand or in general?

since we are discussing this hand, and have been the whole time, and I've asked you for the ranges for this hand, I think you can assume that I want the range for this hand, and not some other imaginary hand that we have no history discussing in this thread or in the recent past.

To be clear post your range for the spot in the hand you posted in this thread. Yes there are antes in the hand.

I'm expecting your next post to be a range.

[Smoker.B.]

KQo is probably the bottom of my opening range here

im also opening AQo+ , AJs+, and 77+

[JodaB.]

KQo is probably the bottom of my opening range here

im also opening AQo+ , AJs+,  and 77+

boom pickles. I think that is a reasonable start. Now what is your reasoning (of the 3 we have) for opening these hands? Do they each have the same reason?

To be clear we are still talking about the hh you posted.

[Smoker.B.]

KQo is probably the bottom of my opening range here

im also opening AQo+ , AJs+,  and 77+

boom pickles.  I think that is a reasonable start.  Now what is your reasoning (of the 3 we have) for opening these hands? Do they each have the same reason?

To be clear we are still talking about the hh you posted.

I dominate worse hands that call (most of the time)

[JodaB.]

KQo is probably the bottom of my opening range here

im also opening AQo+ , AJs+,  and 77+

boom pickles.  I think that is a reasonable start.  Now what is your reasoning (of the 3 we have) for opening these hands? Do they each have the same reason?

To be clear we are still talking about the hh you posted.

I dominate worse hands that call (most of the time)

Sure, you mean to gain postflop, as that is one of the 3 reasons.

Surely if we expect to steal some % with KQ then we expect it with AJ too because of the blockers?

[Smoker.B.]

KQo is probably the bottom of my opening range here

im also opening AQo+ , AJs+,  and 77+

boom pickles.  I think that is a reasonable start.  Now what is your reasoning (of the 3 we have) for opening these hands? Do they each have the same reason?

To be clear we are still talking about the hh you posted.

I dominate worse hands that call (most of the time)

Sure, you mean to gain postflop, as that is one of the 3 reasons.

Surely if we expect to steal some % with KQ then we expect it with AJ too because of the blockers?

I guess? I dont know to be honest.

We haven;t gone over blockers preflop theory in NL together all that much, but maybe that can be our next topic?

I know in my PLO games, I am constantly analyzing ranges and blockers I hold, and that could be in villians range, so maybe that can help me with my NL game if I know a bit more about it?

I feel like im kind of off topic, so excuse me.

Can we please just kind of go over pre flop ranges?

Id really prefer you to deliver what you think instead of this post by post exchange, at this rate it will take next week to start getting this going.

Im not complaining or criticizing your teachings bud, I just really lose interest. I think I have ADD. seriously.

[JodaB.]

I guess? I dont know to be honest.

I think its a good idea to say 'i don't know' if thats the truth because it means you found something to work on.

We haven;t gone over blockers preflop theory in NL together all that much, but maybe that can be our next topic?

Well its our topic right now. All we need to know for know is since we can steal with KQ (two blockers), then we can expect to steal with AJ (two blockers).  It will make more sense soon as we put it all into practice.

I know in my PLO games, I am constantly analyzing  ranges and blockers I hold, and that could be in villians range, so maybe that can help me with my NL game if I know a bit more about it?

Yes thats more of a postflop thing, and will be useful later too, learning about blockers pre in nl will also help that.
I feel like im kind of off topic, so excuse me.

Can we please just kind of go over pre flop ranges?

Thats definitely what we are about to do, but we had to get the '3 reasons for opening' frame work.

Id really prefer you to deliver what you think instead of this post by post exchange, at this rate it will take next week to start getting this going.

I know buddy, I know, and it sucks cause you are stuck in this thread until we get there. Its just that the topic should only take a week, and that seems like forever but only because you have spent 4 years learning it. What you usually do is get right to the good part, and then give up (we are at the good part pretty much. So try to push it further!

Im not complaining or criticizing your teachings bud, I just really lose interest. I think I have ADD. seriously.

ha yes you are complaining and criticizing, by definition, we all have ADD but you will get there.

[JodaB.]

So if we can open KQo and KQs in this hand we are talking about....why should we fold A9s, since it has more equity than KQ (A9s > KQ right)?

Hint: think of the 3 reasons we raise.


(once we nail this I'll post some opening ranges that you can use as a starting chart for reference).

[Smoker.B.]

So if we can open KQo and KQs in this hand we are talking about....why should we fold A9s, since it has more equity than KQ (A9s > KQ right)?

Hint: think of the 3 reasons we raise.


(once we nail this I'll post some opening ranges that you can use as a starting chart for reference).

A9s we are dominated by stronger aces

KQ clogs up more blockers, so has betr equity post flop, and also allows us to steal more (some % of the time) .

[JodaB.]

A9s we are dominated by stronger aces

KQ clogs up more blockers, so has betr equity post flop, and also allows us to steal more (some % of the time) .

nailed it, specifically here I'm looking for the fact that it only has one blocker so we don't get though as a steal as much.

But yes we also are dominated often (people like to call with all better aces), so we run into troubles postflop.

Lemme post a range chart.

[Smoker.B.]

A9s we are dominated by stronger aces

KQ clogs up more blockers, so has betr equity post flop, and also allows us to steal more (some % of the time) .

nailed it, specifically here I'm looking for the fact that it only has one blocker so we don't get though as a steal as much.

But yes we also are dominated often (people like to call with all better aces), so we run into troubles postflop.

Lemme post a range chart.

coo

bed time for me, ill have a gander early tomorrow

latro

[JodaB.]

Now I know you have seen this before but get confused because of context.  Let's be clear, this is for early game play with 75-100bbs effective NO ANTES.  It is for a full table of unknowns.  Its always best to have a backbone that is based off an average table of players:


UTG-99+,AJs+,AJo+

UTG1-99+,AJs+,AJo+

UTG 2-99+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+

MP-88+,ATs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo

HJ-66+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KQo

CU- 22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

BU-22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

SB-22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo




So we should explore that.  You might already have some questions of you own?

Maybe you think a range is too tight?  Maybe someone told you to raise something that isn't on here?  What ever it is we will be able to discuss it in terms of the 3 reasons that we open.

[JodaB.]

So lets take the button range: BU-22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

and categorize it into the three reasons:

1) Steal



2) Get it in



3) Gain postflop




We want to put each hand where it belongs of the three and potentially some belong in 1, 2, or 3 of the categories.

[Smoker.B.]

Now I know you have seen this before but get confused because of context.  Let's be clear, this is for early game play with 75-100bbs effective NO ANTES.  It is for a full table of unknowns.  Its always best to have a backbone that is based off an average table of players:


UTG-99+,AJs+,AJo+

UTG1-99+,AJs+,AJo+

UTG 2-99+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+

MP-88+,ATs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo

HJ-66+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KQo

CU- 22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

BU-22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

SB-22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo




So we should explore that.  You might already have some questions of you own?

Maybe you think a range is too tight?  Maybe someone told you to raise something that isn't on here?  What ever it is we will be able to discuss it in terms of the 3 reasons that we open.

we drilled these exact ranges into my skull maybe 2 years? ago... iirc we did these together  

. I have zero discrepancies except we can obv open wider or tighter depending on villains in the blinds.. however, since this example is early game NO ANTES, then we should probably err on the side of caution and not get too fancy and just go with this

however i know you probably snuck some sneaky hands in there that im not catching and im too tired to put them under a microscope  

[JodaB.]

we drilled these exact ranges into my skull maybe 2 years? ago... iirc we did these together  

. I have zero discrepancies except we can obv open wider or tighter depending on villains in the blinds.. however, since this example is early game NO ANTES, then we should probably err on the side of caution and not get too fancy and just go with this

however i know you probably snuck some sneaky hands in there that im not catching and im too tired to put them under a microscope  

ya that time i let you pick the ranges so these are a little better.  and you nailed it we might feel we can open wider in late position but I really think this is a better solid start.

So give the 3 category exercise a shot.

Also you can pick one position range and ask a pro friend you have what they think for 75bbs poker no antes vs randos.  If they have slightly different take we can discuss which of the 3 reasons they are adding or taking hands away for.

So sometimes someone might suggest something slightly different but you can always talk about it in terms of stealing, getting it in, or postflop.

Also notice JTo is not in our mp opening range  Why might that be?

[Smoker.B.]

So lets take the button range: BU-22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

and categorize it into the three reasons:

1) Steal



2) Get it in



3) Gain postflop




We want to put each hand where it belongs of the three and potentially some belong in 1, 2, or 3 of the categories.  

are u seriousssssssssssssssssssssss??????  

[Smoker.B.]

we drilled these exact ranges into my skull maybe 2 years? ago... iirc we did these together  

. I have zero discrepancies except we can obv open wider or tighter depending on villains in the blinds.. however, since this example is early game NO ANTES, then we should probably err on the side of caution and not get too fancy and just go with this

however i know you probably snuck some sneaky hands in there that im not catching and im too tired to put them under a microscope  

ya that time i let you pick the ranges so these are a little better.  and you nailed it we might feel we can open wider in late position but I really think this is a better solid start.

So give the 3 category exercise a shot.

Also you can pick one position range and ask a pro friend you have what they think for 75bbs poker no antes vs randos.  If they have slightly different take we can discuss which of the 3 reasons they are adding or taking hands away for.

So sometimes someone might suggest something slightly different but you can always talk about it in terms of stealing, getting it in, or postflop.

Also notice JTo is not in our mp opening range  Why might that be?

ja, ill always do the 3 category thing when i open for the next little while

and ill talk to some peeps about 75 beiber pokerz, and get back to you

edit- can u elaborate on the JTo in mp please? just like in general? cliffs? lol .. id just really like to hear ur thoughts on this hand in particular. not as a lesson, but just ur thoughts.. thanks.  

also- sorry if im being dumb, im high on canabis indika marijuana cigarettes

[JodaB.]

So lets take the button range: BU-22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

and categorize it into the three reasons:

1) Steal



2) Get it in



3) Gain postflop




We want to put each hand where it belongs of the three and potentially some belong in 1, 2, or 3 of the categories.  

are u seriousssssssssssssssssssssss??????  

you just have to put the hands in each category they belong, shouldn't take more than 2 minutes

[JodaB.]

ja, ill always do the 3 category thing when i open for the next little while

yes but once its done off the table you don't really need to think about it every hand anymore.

and ill talk to some peeps about 75 beiber pokerz, and get back to you

meh that doesn't matter, just saying you could do it and it would prob make sense what answers people gave you.

edit- can u elaborate on the JTo  in mp please? just like in general? cliffs? lol .. id just really like to hear ur thoughts on this hand in particular. not as a lesson, but just ur thoughts.. thanks.  

Well its not in our opening range, but we notice KQo is, they both have 2 blockers so what is the difference (hint its one of the 3 reasons)?

also- sorry if im being dumb, im high on canabis indika marijuana cigarettes

not an excuse.

[Smoker.B.]

ok, well now that we know why we are raising , I dont feel the need to list the specific hands and where they fit, too time consuming and i just want to move forward

what else do we need to know about opening ranges

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