Re: What are the reasons to 3bet preflop?

[sngking]

I ran into the j10s and 77 situation last night but in sng's! What crazy timing that you post that joda.

[JodaB.]

Great refresher yoda... You have a good way of explaining this stuff so that it's easy to understand!!

No. I am a racist with stupid logic.

[JodaB.]

So a mediocrish TAG reg with a steal % of 30 opens cu and we are on the but with T8o.

This hand isn't good enough to flat, but we can 3bet it as part of our polarized range since villain will likely never flat but will fold enough to make it +ev

We would never do this with KQs, because KQs is so good we want to see a flop with it vs a reg.

[JodaB.]

I ran into the j10s and 77 situation last night but in sng's! What crazy timing that you post that joda.

This won't apply as much to sitngos since you will be mostly short stacked all the time. But its still good for you to learn about this stuff for mtts.

[Superman]

Full Tilt Poker Game #32148069069: $5,000 Guarantee (249485434), Table 11 - 170/340 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:22:08 PT - 2013/02/18 [00:22:08 ET - 2013/02/19]
Seat 1: Houndboy (11,840)
Seat 2: Ddayy (7,286)
Seat 3: clic969 (5,167)
Seat 5: plebbb (15,173)
Seat 6: BackDooRinLOVE (4,434)
Seat 7: Bcboy72 (23,156)
Seat 8: nalim9c (9,545)
Seat 9: mattyc404 (10,109)
Houndboy antes 25
Ddayy antes 25
clic969 antes 25
plebbb antes 25
BackDooRinLOVE antes 25
Bcboy72 antes 25
nalim9c antes 25
mattyc404 antes 25
nalim9c posts the small blind of 170
mattyc404 posts the big blind of 340
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bcboy72 [5d Kd]
Houndboy folds
Ddayy folds
clic969 folds
plebbb raises to 680
BackDooRinLOVE has 15 seconds left to act
BackDooRinLOVE folds
Bcboy72 has 15 seconds left to act
Bcboy72 raises to 1,700
nalim9c folds
mattyc404 folds
plebbb calls 1,020
*** FLOP *** [3h 2c 2s] (Total Pot: 4,110, 2 Players)
plebbb checks
Bcboy72 bets 1,700
plebbb calls 1,700
*** TURN *** [3h 2c 2s] [9s] (Total Pot: 7,510, 2 Players)
plebbb checks

[JodaB.]

Full Tilt Poker Game #32148069069: $5,000 Guarantee (249485434), Table 11 - 170/340 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:22:08 PT - 2013/02/18 [00:22:08 ET - 2013/02/19]
Seat 1: Houndboy (11,840)
Seat 2: Ddayy (7,286)
Seat 3: clic969 (5,167)
Seat 5: plebbb (15,173)
Seat 6: BackDooRinLOVE (4,434)
Seat 7: Bcboy72 (23,156)
Seat 8: nalim9c (9,545)
Seat 9: mattyc404 (10,109)
Houndboy antes 25
Ddayy antes 25
clic969 antes 25
plebbb antes 25
BackDooRinLOVE antes 25
Bcboy72 antes 25
nalim9c antes 25
mattyc404 antes 25
nalim9c posts the small blind of 170
mattyc404 posts the big blind of 340
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bcboy72 [5d Kd]
Houndboy folds
Ddayy folds
clic969 folds
plebbb raises to 680
BackDooRinLOVE has 15 seconds left to act
BackDooRinLOVE folds
Bcboy72 has 15 seconds left to act
Bcboy72 raises to 1,700
nalim9c folds
mattyc404 folds
plebbb calls 1,020
*** FLOP *** [3h 2c 2s] (Total Pot: 4,110, 2 Players)
plebbb checks
Bcboy72 bets 1,700
plebbb calls 1,700
*** TURN *** [3h 2c 2s] [9s] (Total Pot: 7,510, 2 Players)
plebbb checks

ok so, here you are 3betting a polarized range (unless you are suuuuuper wide here). But the idea is you have some 3bet bluffs like k5s that you will fold to 4bet, and some nut hands you will 5bet get it in with.

You have a king blocker which makes it less likely our oppenent has KQ AK KK. We are suited which is nice in case we do see a flop, we can cbet bdflds and barrel turned flush draws.

Now I didn't see a read posted here. I think that we need a read that he is a good player and knows that he can't flat a 3bet oop to 3bet k5s. We generally use a polarized range vs good players and a depolarized range vs randoms.

If this player is a random we might fold k5s but raise a wide range like 22+ any broadway most suited aces. We unfortunately have to fold hands like 77 to a 4bet, where normally we can set mine and see a flop. But we have the added advantage of a bad player flatting us pre and seeing a flop out of position with a weak range.

This is nice with a hand like 77 since he will often flat all broadway and will usually check fold the flop, but sometimes check call and the turn and river go check, check and we pick up a big pot about 50% of the time (great deal with pot odds).

We might find out (especially in 6max cash playing 100's of hand vs someone) that they call 3bets oop and check fold flops, then we wouldn't mind having k5s either, and in that case we would be 3betting an extended extended depolarized range.

So our money really comes from adjusting our 3bets to each player type more accurately.

In this hand the 3bet is ok, but better with read. The cbet is standard as we will almost always cbet and then evaluate the turn. Since no more equity came for us on the turn I think we should check back and consider bluffing all river with a JQA (value if a king, bet/fold?), and check back any cards that aren't good bluff cards.

Now that we have seen this player call a 3bet oop and check call the flop, my 3bet range for sure will be and extended depolarized range, 22+ BW Suited aces and like 76s up. I know hes calling my 3bets oop, he likes to see flops and doesn't just check fold. Its a mistake to flat hands like 88 vs him because you will get more value and ev from 3betting and exploiting his problem flatting 3bets oop.

[Superman]

ok so, here you are 3betting a polarized range (unless you are suuuuuper wide here). But the idea is you have some 3bet bluffs like k5s that you will fold to 4bet, and some nut hands you will 5bet get it in with.

You have a king blocker which makes it less likely our oppenent has KQ AK KK. We are suited which is nice in case we do see a flop, we can cbet bdflds and barrel turned flush draws.

Now I didn't see a read posted here. I think that we need a read that he is a good player and knows that he can't flat a 3bet oop to 3bet k5s. We generally use a polarized range vs good players and a depolarized range vs randoms.

Yeah, I meant to throw reads in there, but was in the middle of hands and didn't want to forget about it. He is a good player, that I planned to fold to a 4 bet. He had been raising a fair bit and I wanted to basically put a stop to it, figuring if I fold to a 4 bet here, and do it again with the nuts next time, I send him home..and if he gets beat up here..he will also slow down.

So our money really comes from adjusting our 3bets to each player type more accurately.

In this hand the 3bet is ok, but better with read. The cbet is standard as we will almost always cbet and then evaluate the turn. Since no more equity came for us on the turn I think we should check back and consider bluffing all river with a JQA (value if a king, bet/fold?), and check back any cards that aren't good bluff cards.

This is where I was a bit concerned...I figured he is check calling any mid pairs and big aces..basically the range he is gonna raise call with...so if i do a bit of pot control by checking the turn it helps in the end.

We checked the turn and the river was a J...
he checked again...
I didn't figure he was gonna fold anything that I beat if I bet...so I just checked behind..but thinking that may have been incorrect...because he could have folded better in retrospect..but I felt my weakness on the turn, led him to believe I had squat..

he showed up with 5h6h...

Now that we have seen this player call a 3bet oop and check call the flop, my 3bet range for sure will be and extended depolarized range, 22+ BW Suited aces and like 76s up. I know hes calling my 3bets oop, he likes to see flops and doesn't just check fold. Its a mistake to flat hands like 88 vs him because you will get more value and ev from 3betting and exploiting his problem flatting 3bets oop.

duly noted and was thinking along the same lines..and was noted to that effect on him during the game..

[JodaB.]

Yeah, I meant to throw reads in there, but was in the middle of hands and didn't want to forget about it. He is a good player, that I planned to fold to a 4 bet.

In general if he is a good player, he will never flat a 3bet oop, now there are some instances where he might (like if betrthanphil is villain, he might flat because he can legit out play you) But even very good regs know that they can't flat you oop. This guy did, so I think you didn't have a read. What we want to see is either crushing opr stats, OR even a min open/fold to a 3bet, then we can start to assume he'll likely fold to a 3bet rather than flat.

He had been raising a fair bit and I wanted to basically put a stop to it,

figuring if I fold to a 4 bet here, and do it again with the nuts next time, I send him home..and if he gets beat up here..he will also slow down.

Conversely once we see someone flat, we KNOW they flat 3bets oop, and we can attack them with a wide unpolarized range. Later once we see them showdown a hand in a 3bet oop pot, we can adjust our range further to exploit them.

This is where I was a bit concerned...I figured he is check calling any mid pairs and big aces..basically the range he is gonna raise call with...so if i do a bit of pot control by checking the turn it helps in the end.

ya

We checked the turn and the river was a J...
he checked again...
I didn't figure he was gonna fold anything that I beat if I bet...

Here how we avoid that though, we have to ask ourselves if we have showdown value vs villains range. Surely king high is good sometimes, but he'll often have kx himself with a better kicker, Ax, pair, and some combination of air.

Its imporant we look at our hand and realize we don't have a lot of showdown value, that would suggest we should bluff. We think about, not if villain will fold, but like you said will he fold worse he certainly might AND we don't often win if we check.

Furthermore when he checks the river he doesn't often have better than a jack or he might lead out.

so I just checked behind..but thinking that may have been incorrect...because he could have folded better in retrospect..but I felt my weakness on the turn, led him to believe I had squat..

Ya so we bet say 1/2 pot to fold his air and expect him not to call often enough for our bluff to be +ev (he only has to fold 1 in 3 times right?)

he showed up with 5h6h...

duly noted and was thinking along the same lines..and was noted to that effect on him during the game..

Ok so heres the key, now we know his tendency. His is flatting oop with his entire range! And hes playing his draws passively, and not betting when he misses. So now we will take and extended value range that has hands with post flop playability and 3bet the SHIT out of him.

3bet all pairs, bw, suited connectors, and a few suited kings etc. We can play our turns a little more aggressively and expect him to fold a lot because of his weak range.

If he plays back we can start to be a little cautious about thinking he is bluffing or drawing.

[Superman]

Yeah, I had clued in after that he certainly wasn't as good as I originally thought..being platinum, I think I am giving these guys too much credit. But how I see it is...they have to play a shit load more than I do to be platinum, and unless they are steady losers..must be doing alright? Same for Diamond players..I figure they have a better grasp on the game so play accordingly (ie:knowing they will shove wider ranges)

The hand was a learning experience... Which is kind of why I posted it..because I knew I wasn't getting it all.

[JodaB.]

Yeah, I had clued in after that he certainly wasn't as good as I originally thought..being platinum, I think I am giving these guys too much credit. But how I see it is...they have to play a shit load more than I do to be platinum, and unless they are steady losers..must be doing alright? Same for Diamond players..I figure they have a better grasp on the game so play accordingly (ie:knowing they will shove wider ranges)

The hand was a learning experience... Which is kind of why I posted it..because I knew I wasn't getting it all.

Im sure you ARE getting it, here though I think we need to have more reason to think he is good, very few player know not to flat 3bet oop, therefore we will always assume they will, and so we will generally 3bet depolarized ranges initial vs randoms.

And save adjustments for solid evidence.

Knowing hes platinum will help us adjust other things a little but keep in mind he could just be player he mostly plays high/mid stakes and is uber bad because he doesn't even realize those levels are out of his league.

I get a lot of supernovas in my game that are just soo bad, so there obv rich idiots etc.

[Superman]

Back in the day, all I played were 20-50 and 100 dollar 9 mans. I didn't know any better, as that is what I played at home..lol

wish those stats were still on OPR...I don't think I did that bad considering. I think at the last part, my online winnings were well over 100k (gross of course) I thought it was pretty good at the time..lol

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