Can I Overcall pre..
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Can I Overcall pre..
PokerStars - $2+$0.20|60/120 Ante 15 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
BB: 3,075
UTG: 7,672->>>99+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+
UTG+1: 8,830->>>77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo (maybe a little looser)
UTG+2: 3,618
MP: 6,600
MP+1: 17,135
CO: 8,165
Hero (BTN): 11,870
SB: 8,857
9 players post ante of 15, SB posts SB 60, BB posts BB 120
Pre Flop: (pot: 315) Hero has K:club: T:club:
UTG raises to 360, UTG+1 calls 360, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero??
would u ever call here? and how are my ranges?
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
BB: 3,075
UTG: 7,672->>>99+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+
UTG+1: 8,830->>>77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo (maybe a little looser)
UTG+2: 3,618
MP: 6,600
MP+1: 17,135
CO: 8,165
Hero (BTN): 11,870
SB: 8,857
9 players post ante of 15, SB posts SB 60, BB posts BB 120
Pre Flop: (pot: 315) Hero has K:club: T:club:
UTG raises to 360, UTG+1 calls 360, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero??
would u ever call here? and how are my ranges?
RWPKRPLR1- Posts : 882
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Join date : 2013-01-14
Location : Ontario
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
Its close, talk about postflop...
JodaB.- Posts : 1327
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Join date : 2012-12-29
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
Like Joda says it's close, If I knew opponents were passive post flop I'm calling more, If they are aggressive not so much but you are in position here so I might still call.
sngking- Posts : 533
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Join date : 2013-02-09
Age : 46
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
JEDI POWERS IN EFFECTJodaB. wrote:Its close, talk about postflop...
I like that thought.sngking wrote:Like Joda says it's close, If I knew opponents were passive post flop I'm calling more, If they are aggressive not so much but you are in position here so I might still call.
RWPKRPLR1- Posts : 882
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Location : Ontario
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
I don't know what just happened here...RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JEDI POWERS IN EFFECT
anyways....ha, give your thoughts about different scenarios vs different types of flops.
One thing we start to realize from taking notes and patternizing flops is that there are only so many relevant flops to most spots
What flops do we want, what flop don't we want, what flops will we call, fold, bet, raise etc....
JodaB.- Posts : 1327
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Join date : 2012-12-29
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
pre: According to the numbers, even if I put a fair amount of spew in for utg1, its always a fold.
Note: these plrs are unknowns 7 & 14 hands
PokerStars - $2+$0.20|60/120 Ante 15 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
BB: 3,075
UTG: 7,672->>>99+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+
UTG+1: 8,830->>>77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo (maybe a little looser)
UTG+2: 3,618
MP: 6,600
MP+1: 17,135
CO: 8,165
Hero (BTN): 11,870
SB: 8,857
9 players post ante of 15, SB posts SB 60, BB posts BB 120
Pre Flop: (pot: 315) Hero has K:club: T:club:
UTG raises to 360, UTG+1 calls 360, fold, fold, fold, fold, Herocalls 360, fold, fold
Flop: (1,395, 3 players) J:club: Q:heart: 4:club:
UTG bets 480, UTG+1 raises to 3,120, [color=red]Hero ???
Note: these plrs are unknowns 7 & 14 hands
PokerStars - $2+$0.20|60/120 Ante 15 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
BB: 3,075
UTG: 7,672->>>99+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+
UTG+1: 8,830->>>77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo (maybe a little looser)
UTG+2: 3,618
MP: 6,600
MP+1: 17,135
CO: 8,165
Hero (BTN): 11,870
SB: 8,857
9 players post ante of 15, SB posts SB 60, BB posts BB 120
Pre Flop: (pot: 315) Hero has K:club: T:club:
UTG raises to 360, UTG+1 calls 360, fold, fold, fold, fold, Herocalls 360, fold, fold
Flop: (1,395, 3 players) J:club: Q:heart: 4:club:
UTG bets 480, UTG+1 raises to 3,120, [color=red]Hero ???
RWPKRPLR1- Posts : 882
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
Also I enjoy foruming, but i will mention that coaching and review is sooo much more effective quicker and easier over screen share, and for the bat caver's I'd do it for free so y'all know you can hit me up sometime for a hh review or questions.
JodaB.- Posts : 1327
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Join date : 2012-12-29
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
ha I thought you meant you were just gonna jedi the flop and ignore talking about it!RWPKRPLR1 wrote:pre: According to the numbers, even if I put a fair amount of spew in for utg1, its always a fold.
According to number? what do you mean by that?
We should generalize our flop analysis (look at all types of spots) and not so much worry about the hand.
As for this one, you hit a nut flop so gii.
JodaB.- Posts : 1327
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Join date : 2012-12-29
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
LOL I knew my answer, wanted to see if i could challenge u, knowing that its very close..lolJodaB. wrote:I don't know what just happened here...RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
JEDI POWERS IN EFFECT
JodaB. wrote:anyways....ha, give your thoughts about different scenarios vs different types of flops.
One thing we start to realize from taking notes and patternizing flops is that there are only so many relevant flops to most spots
What flops do we want, what flop don't we want, what flops will we call, fold, bet, raise etc....
right on that's a very good thought, I do plan ahead, but I think I dont always do it properly. To develop this skill (which I skimmed over a while back, but never followed through with). I should compare my hand vs their preflop range vs the type of flop?
RWPKRPLR1- Posts : 882
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Location : Ontario
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
our hand vs their ranges = total eq(the numbers)JodaB. wrote:ha I thought you meant you were just gonna jedi the flop and ignore talking about it!RWPKRPLR1 wrote:pre: According to the numbers, even if I put a fair amount of spew in for utg1, its always a fold.
According to number? what do you mean by that?
GII[x]JodaB. wrote:We should generalize our flop analysis (look at all types of spots) and not so much worry about the hand.
As for this one, you hit a nut flop so gii.
calls 360, fold, fold
Flop: (1,395, 3 players) J:club: Q:heart: 4:club:
UTG bets 480, UTG+1 raises to 3,120, Hero raises to 11,495 and is all-in, UTG calls 6,817 and is all-in, UTG+1 calls 5,335 and is all-in
Turn: (25,602, 3 players) 7:spade:
River: (25,602, 3 players) 7:diamond:
RWPKRPLR1- Posts : 882
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Join date : 2013-01-14
Location : Ontario
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
this will suggest we need to make up for it post flop. Most people say, oh I'll out play them postflop. But once they realize what it means they might understand you can't just announce you will do that.RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
our hand vs their ranges = total eq(the numbers)
Ya like make a post such as "if x flop comes ill do this, if player A bets ill do this etc."RWPKRPLR1 wrote: I should compare my hand vs their preflop range vs the type of flop?
still waitin for it
JodaB.- Posts : 1327
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Join date : 2012-12-29
Re: Can I Overcall pre..
JodaB. wrote:this will suggest we need to make up for it post flop. Most people say, oh I'll out play them postflop. But once they realize what it means they might understand you can't just announce you will do that.RWPKRPLR1 wrote:
our hand vs their ranges = total eq(the numbers)
ya I think we can only do that after we see some postflop play from our opponent..
In this type scenario against unknowns and their relative hand ranges, I think reverse implied odds come into play. Now if we had some history with the villains or the were opening and calling in later positions it would be a different story.
JodaB. wrote:Ya like make a post such as "if x flop comes ill do this, if player A bets ill do this etc."RWPKRPLR1 wrote: I should compare my hand vs their preflop range vs the type of flop?
still waitin for it
RWPKRPLR1- Posts : 882
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
Ya if we think about the flops we want, Txx Kxx KTQ KTJ, KK9, AKK, 725 etc. we're really not going to be happy with big pots.
This happens cause kts is so crushed by there ranges. So we really have to be careful flatting here although its prob marginally +ev if we are good enough post. Its prob ok to fold with any read ep is tightish.
I might check if their are deepstack fish in the blinds and flat if there is, and fold if there isn't.
But once you look at our hand vs their range and some flops, its pretty clear we can get into trouble fast.
This happens cause kts is so crushed by there ranges. So we really have to be careful flatting here although its prob marginally +ev if we are good enough post. Its prob ok to fold with any read ep is tightish.
I might check if their are deepstack fish in the blinds and flat if there is, and fold if there isn't.
But once you look at our hand vs their range and some flops, its pretty clear we can get into trouble fast.
JodaB.- Posts : 1327
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
am i the only one seeing a clear fold here, and its not even close?
utg range is snug, but utg1 flat right behind is even stronger
utg range is snug, but utg1 flat right behind is even stronger
Smoker.B.- Posts : 586
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
i like it. if you show me your capable of it, ill be impressed.Smoker.B. wrote:am i the only one seeing a clear fold here, and its not even close?
utg range is snug, but utg1 flat right behind is even stronger
JodaB.- Posts : 1327
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
JodaB. wrote:Ya if we think about the flops we want, Txx Kxx KTQ KTJ, KK9, AKK, 725 etc. we're really not going to be happy with big pots.
This happens cause kts is so crushed by there ranges. So we really have to be careful flatting here although its prob marginally +ev if we are good enough post. Its prob ok to fold with any read ep is tightish.
I might check if their are deepstack fish in the blinds and flat if there is, and fold if there isn't.
But once you look at our hand vs their range and some flops, its pretty clear we can get into trouble fast.
Like 100 percent this! I was going to say the same thing about being careful postflop cause your looking for a good flop with these kind of hands but joda explained it great here.
sngking- Posts : 533
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
JodaB. wrote:i like it. if you show me your capable of it, ill be impressed.Smoker.B. wrote:am i the only one seeing a clear fold here, and its not even close?
utg range is snug, but utg1 flat right behind is even stronger
i think u would like my entire db of mtt hh's
Smoker.B.- Posts : 586
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
RW you never really stated stats of opponents preflop, so I assume you dont have much sample on them.... But I usually will check the RFI from ep stat here just to see how active utg has been. If he's opened 6/7 EP opportunities, then I might rethink that opening range you gave. Prob best to start with your assumptins with no prev stats though, and adjust from there.
I agree that its pretty marginal flat pre flop if the given ranges are correct. Later on in the tourny though, when blinds are higher and ppl are more snug postflop, I think it might become more profitable to flat?... Assuming that we will scoop more pots postflop. Typically preflop raises arent 3x though at that time, which also helps.
I agree that its pretty marginal flat pre flop if the given ranges are correct. Later on in the tourny though, when blinds are higher and ppl are more snug postflop, I think it might become more profitable to flat?... Assuming that we will scoop more pots postflop. Typically preflop raises arent 3x though at that time, which also helps.
REEBS77- Posts : 294
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
Posted that they were unknowns in post #6
But ya you're right, with more history, this play wouldn't be so marginal.
But ya you're right, with more history, this play wouldn't be so marginal.
RWPKRPLR1- Posts : 882
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
Fold >>>>> 3b >>>>> flat imo
3 Betting does 2 things
Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)
And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.
KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way
3 Betting does 2 things
Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)
And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.
KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way
Smoker.B.- Posts : 586
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Posted that they were unknowns in post #6
But ya you're right, with more history, this play wouldn't be so marginal.
See im blind.
REEBS77- Posts : 294
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
Smoker.B. wrote:Fold >>>>> 3b >>>>> flat imo
3 Betting does 2 things
Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)
And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.
KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way
Not really sure 3 bet bluffing is an option. I kinda think fold>flat>3bet without any reads. Not getting enough folds out of those small opening/flatting ranges to make the bluff profitable, are we? .... the hands you mentioned above arent even in RWs range that he assigned to the utg opener, and are barely inside the range for the flatter.
REEBS77- Posts : 294
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
REEBS77 wrote:Smoker.B. wrote:Fold >>>>> 3b >>>>> flat imo
3 Betting does 2 things
Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)
And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.
KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way
Not really sure 3 bet bluffing is an option. I kinda think fold>flat>3bet without any reads. Not getting enough folds out of those small opening/flatting ranges to make the bluff profitable, are we? .... the hands you mentioned above arent even in RWs range that he assigned to the utg opener, and are barely inside the range for the flatter.
We are certainly deep enough, and it doesn't hurt us to fold to a shove , and we don't give them good enough implied odds to set mine .
Smoker.B.- Posts : 586
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
also, im not saying TOO 3b, im saying its something we could think about given certain circumstances
this hand is clearly a fold
this hand is clearly a fold
Smoker.B.- Posts : 586
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Re: Can I Overcall pre..
Smoker.B. wrote:REEBS77 wrote:Smoker.B. wrote:Fold >>>>> 3b >>>>> flat imo
3 Betting does 2 things
Let's us rep a stronger range (obv)
And 2, it forces villains to maybe fold hands that don't flop/play well post (mid/small pairs, ATo, KJs, shit like that). We want hands stronger than us to fold, so we are 3b bluffing.
KTs does really poorly on any flop we actually connect with (minus a frush) not to mention it's not the best hand to play hu pots, let alone 3 way
Not really sure 3 bet bluffing is an option. I kinda think fold>flat>3bet without any reads. Not getting enough folds out of those small opening/flatting ranges to make the bluff profitable, are we? .... the hands you mentioned above arent even in RWs range that he assigned to the utg opener, and are barely inside the range for the flatter.
We are certainly deep enough, and it doesn't hurt us to fold to a shove , and we don't give them good enough implied odds to set mine .
Did you read my message or just blindly type?
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