Beating Wide Button Call

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Beating Wide Button Call

Post  negreanu1985 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:09 pm

I played a live 1 in 17 black chip bounty satellite last night for $100+100+20 and it went pretty horribly. Couldn't get any folds, was getting 3 or 4 callers every hand even though I was playing TAG. Biggest loss was the following hand which I'd welcome advice on.

Folded to me in the CO, raised 3x with K8. Called by button and both blinds. Pot is 2400. Flop is 669, I cbet 1500, button calls, everyone else folds. Pot is 5400. K on the turn, I pot control by check calling button's 2000 turn bet. Pot is 9400. River is a rag, I still pot control and check, button bets 4000, I call. Shows K6o for the boat. How do I avoid this despite improving on the turn? Can I really fold the river despite the possible A9, TT-QQ in his range?

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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:34 pm

1. Fold pre. When we're playing a loose game like this we need to playing hands we can get it in, or play well postflop.

2. As played on the flop, I will never take a stab here(multiway) when I miss. usually we have minimal equity if we miss, and in a loose game a bluff is rarely getting through.

As for avoiding this if we fold pre we don't get into these silly situations  

I hope this helps, cheers.

Joda ur up  Very Happy

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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  sngking on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:28 pm

I am with rw, with 3 or more post flop I am not taking a stab on the flop, If no one shows interest in the pot come turn and I am like the last to act I might bet if my chip stack allows me to do so and I am feeling frisky. Razz 

BTW who is o.p.? Suspect Wink 

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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  REEBS77 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:16 am

negreanu1985 wrote:I played a live 1 in 17 black chip bounty satellite last night for $100+100+20 and it went pretty horribly. Couldn't get any folds, was getting 3 or 4 callers every hand even though I was playing TAG. Biggest loss was the following hand which I'd welcome advice on.

Folded to me in the CO, raised 3x with K8. Called by button and both blinds. Pot is 2400. Flop is 669, I cbet 1500, button calls, everyone else folds. Pot is 5400. K on the turn, I pot control by check calling button's 2000 turn bet. Pot is 9400. River is a rag, I still pot control and check, button bets 4000, I call. Shows K6o for the boat. How do I avoid this despite improving on the turn? Can I really fold the river despite the possible A9, TT-QQ in his range?

a few things:

- raising K8 from CO is hardly playing TAG.  Be aware of your image.  Try not to be biased.
- If you are getting 3-4 callers every hand, you should play into that.  Try to figure out which hands play best post flop multi-way.  Know that when you decide to play a hand, you will get a few callers, so don't bluff.  Value, Value, Value.
- No need to raise 3x typically, however I wouldn't mind it if its really this loose of a game.  Would prefer to have KQ/KJ or something though rather than K8.  My std here would be to open 2.5x.
- Your cbet is into 3 other people, including the blinds who could have called with any garbage.  This board smacks those hands usually.  I agree with others, don't cbet this.
- It is important to know what the suits were and the river card.  You are giving us incomplete info, so its a bit hard to give correct responses.  Obv the suits are important to factor in draws/bluffs/etc.
- I think now that we hit our K on the turn, we need to bet again.  Without knowing suits, there are already a bunch of gutters/OE straight draws that btn calls with.  He also prob calls some pairs, and any 9s.  Your stack size is important here too, since sometimes we should be eager to gii with top pair here, and sometimes we do want to pot control if our stack is too big to get in with tp.

Try to focus on the small details, as the more info you can give us, the better responses you will get.

Also, feel free to comment on other existing strat threads!  Smile


Last edited by REEBS77 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : misread cbet size)
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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  JodaB. on Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:30 pm

ya i thought we were suited, its like bb 600 or something right? I assumed antes as well. I think I figured we were 3 way to the flop, but either way I think we can stab and barrel sometimes on a flop like this even vs 3 others. Not as a standard but with reads.

K8s seems like a fine min open with antes, i might likely fold k8o depending on stacks and players behind. If we are likely to go 3 or 4 players to the flop then we should tighten our range and raise bigger pre.
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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  REEBS77 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:02 am

JodaB. wrote:ya i thought we were suited, its like bb 600 or something right?  I assumed antes as well.  I think I figured we were 3 way to the flop, but either way I think we can stab and barrel sometimes on a flop like this even vs 3 others.  Not as a standard but with reads.

K8s seems like a fine min open with antes, i might likely fold k8o depending on stacks and players behind.  If we are likely to go 3 or 4 players to the flop then we should tighten our range and raise bigger pre.

yeah wasn't saying the open wasn't fine, just was mentioning that it prob isn't what most would consider TAG, and as such, we will get played back at differently since our image likely isn't TAG anymore.

Stabbing with a half sized bet, our stab needs to work 1/3 times to be profitable on its own. If each opponent continues with 35% of their starting range, then our cbet is -ev as a bluff. (I don't know if how I said that actually makes sense.... Yoda?) Against flatty live players I think this is a mistake.
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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:29 am

REEBS77 wrote:
yeah wasn't saying the open wasn't fine, just was mentioning that it prob isn't what most would consider TAG, and as such, we will get played back at differently since our image likely isn't TAG anymore.

Stabbing with a half sized bet, our stab needs to work 1/3 times to be profitable on its own.  If each opponent continues with 35% of their starting range, then our cbet is -ev as a bluff.  (I don't know if how I said that actually makes sense.... Yoda?)  Against flatty live players I think this is a mistake.
Ya it might be a mistake if you always do it, but it also prob a mistake if you don't sometimes do it. I'm talking more 3 way (rarer still but we can sometimes do 4 way I'm sure), there's many boards we can stab xyy is a great one.

And yes of course if we have to get through 33% then we need all villains to continue not more than that.  but we should note it only takes 1 villain to do so for it to be not profitable.

But that doesn't mean its not profitable, there are plenty of spots that meet this criteria.  We do this with some equity, and often tons of fold equity on the turn (pick good barrel cards!).

These are the kinda flops that are tough for cally players to float twice and they also have a weak (wide) range on the turn (right?)
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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:32 pm

forgot to add we can cbet smaller on these and dry boards so we sometimes need a lot less than folds for a 1/2 pot cbet.
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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  REEBS77 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:40 pm

JodaB. wrote:forgot to add we can cbet smaller on these and dry boards so we sometimes need a lot less than folds for a 1/2 pot cbet.

Online I agree.... not sold about live, but I don't play live much anymore....
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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

Post  JodaB. on Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:52 pm

yup compared to online, live we should raise bigger and have a tighter range in general
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Re: Beating Wide Button Call

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