Preflop? Post flop?

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Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:15 pm

No Limit Holdem Tournament
PokerStars
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$50+$5

Stacks:
UTG 2,314 4bb
UTG+1 27,005 45bb
MP1 17,858 30bb
MP2 15,205 25bb
CO 8,740 15bb
Hero (BTN) 14,218 24bb
SB 15,936 27bb
BB 7,541 13bb

Blinds: 300/600 Ante 70

Pre-Flop: (1,460, 8 players) Hero is BTN 3d 9d
3 folds, MP2 calls 600, 1 fold, Hero raises to 1,320, 2 folds, MP2 calls 720

Flop: 2h 7c 3h (4,100, 2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 1,888, MP2 goes all-in 13,815, Hero?


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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:34 pm


This is very difficult without the dynamics of your game...it's a 50 buck game, and some of these players likely know you...is the Villain one of them?

One part of me *sigh-folds*, simply because of his limp-call then check raise.. but that is such a weak play, why are they in a 50 buck game...did they just check raise a flush draw with something like 10J...

I am curious how the open with this hand can be plus ev (with the limper) unless the table is uber nitty ?

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:42 pm

Superman wrote:
This is very difficult without the dynamics of your game...it's a 50 buck game, and some of these players likely know you...is the Villain one of them?

One part of me *sigh-folds*, simply because of his limp-call then check raise.. but that is such a weak play, why are they in a 50 buck game...did they just check raise a flush draw with something like 10J...

I am curious how the open with this hand can be plus ev (with the limper) unless the table is uber nitty ?
well what ranges do we put villain on?
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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:09 am

well what ranges do we put villain on?

Again, this is kinda tough without knowing dynamics...but..limp-call to me sounds about 22-1010, 89s ,910s, 10js, OJs, KQs..maybe AQs if he has been a 'fraidy cat..

I think he raises JJ + and certainly comes over the top with QQ+

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:43 am

I think we have to call.

Basing this on not knowing anything else about the villain. He seams like a weaker player, so I have assigned him a range of 99-22,ATs-A2s,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo.

Against this range on the flop we're getting 1.71-1, which means we need roughly 37% equity to call. When I stove it we have 61% equity (rounded up) against this range.






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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:11 am

Superman wrote:
well what ranges do we put villain on?

Again, this is kinda tough without knowing dynamics...but..limp-call to me sounds about 22-1010, 89s ,910s, 10js, OJs, KQs..maybe AQs if he has been a 'fraidy cat..

I think he raises JJ + and certainly comes over the top with QQ+
Ya agreed, I like the fact you capped his range. In stove we can choose AA KK and QQ and take out half the combos in each and see what thats like. Certainly sometimes a random flats AA etc. but certainly not always.
RWPKRPLR1 wrote:I think we have to call.

Basing this on not knowing anything else about the villain. He seams like a weaker player, so I have assigned him a range of 99-22,ATs-A2s,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo.

Against this range on the flop we're getting 1.71-1, which means we need roughly 37% equity to call. When I stove it we have 61% equity (rounded up) against this range.
Ok but we won't assume he gets in his entire preflop range. I won't suggest a certain % but certainly his get it in ranges is less than his openlimp/call pre range.
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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:19 pm

Finally got to think about this hand again. This is what I came up with

Since he open limped, my image of him is weak. So going through the possibilities, I don't think he is shipping his Air or his draws, He would probably call with his draws in fear of busting. So I would think he is betting his over pairs & made hands (99-77,33-22,A7s,A7o). If this is correct then we have to snap fold.

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:51 pm

While this is probably too specific to look at as an "overall" type thing...I get this strange gut feeling he limp calls with AhXh, hits his gutter w/fd or tp w/fd...just seems like the weak play that would fit here... we avg. about 30% here agains those few hands..so I think we have to let it go.

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:49 pm

What about broadways? Surely he limp calls them pre?
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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:18 pm

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Finally got to think about this hand again. This is what I came up with

Since he open limped, my image of him is weak. So going through the possibilities, I don't think he is shipping his Air or his draws, He would probably call with his draws in fear of busting. So I would think he is betting his over pairs & made hands (99-77,33-22,A7s,A7o). If this is correct then we have to snap fold.
Well firstly you will never give a range that includes 0% bluff. He will always have air a certain %. The best way to rep that is to look at his hand without air and slowly put air in and see how it effects our equity.

Remember that any flush draws have to overs and even fish can recognize a flush+ outs is a strong hand.

Also keep in mind this player is bad since he limped pre. And he certain on the flop (before check raise) has every combination of Broad way in his range.
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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:10 pm

JodaB. wrote:What about broadways? Surely he limp calls them pre?

As I said...it was too specific...but Axs is a favorite limp-call hand among weak players and this looks like one of those spots. I am sure he does limp-call with some suited broadways, but I think it is a lot less than Axs. That might make up enough equity..but it seems borderline.

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:20 pm

Superman wrote:
JodaB. wrote:What about broadways? Surely he limp calls them pre?

As I said...it was too specific...but Axs is a favorite limp-call hand among weak players and this looks like one of those spots. I am sure he does limp-call with some suited broadways, but I think it is a lot less than Axs. That might make up enough equity..but it seems borderline.
Not sure I will argue this is an optimal hand but we should go into it a little regardless.

I agree we can put most Ax in his range, probably capping out AA AQ AK a little as randos often raise them pre. Furthermore when we iso and he doesn't reshove we can feel pretty strongly he doesn't have those trouble hands like aq and JJ because surely he would shove rather than see a flop.

I'm not sure he always limps hand like a3o either so I feel like he has his bottom aces a little less often.

But about bw, are we suggesting hes folding JTs? Raising it? KJo? QJo? I think when we get habitual limpers we can generally assume that they are either trapping or limping with all BW most aces and most pairs, and a few suited connectors.

I don't think we can suggest that he doesn't make it to postflop here without certain broadway in his range. Not sure we can say he check raises his whole range, but I do feel strongly he sees this flop with any pair, any brw, most aces, suited connectors and fairly capped range (very few nut hands)

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:21 pm

the end of this discussion will help the 3bet basics but also the advanced 3bet (clicking it back)
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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:39 pm

JodaB. wrote:
Superman wrote:
JodaB. wrote:What about broadways? Surely he limp calls them pre?

As I said...it was too specific...but Axs is a favorite limp-call hand among weak players and this looks like one of those spots. I am sure he does limp-call with some suited broadways, but I think it is a lot less than Axs. That might make up enough equity..but it seems borderline.
Not sure I will argue this is an optimal hand but we should go into it a little regardless.

I agree we can put most Ax in his range, probably capping out AA AQ AK a little as randos often raise them pre. Furthermore when we iso and he doesn't reshove we can feel pretty strongly he doesn't have those trouble hands like aq and JJ because surely he would shove rather than see a flop.

I'm not sure he always limps hand like a3o either so I feel like he has his bottom aces a little less often.

But about bw, are we suggesting hes folding JTs? Raising it? KJo? QJo? I think when we get habitual limpers we can generally assume that they are either trapping or limping with all BW most aces and most pairs, and a few suited connectors.

I don't think we can suggest that he doesn't make it to postflop here without certain broadway in his range. Not sure we can say he check raises his whole range, but I do feel strongly he sees this flop with any pair, any brw, most aces, suited connectors and fairly capped range (very few nut hands)


This forum needs a "multiquote" function..

I do stick by my original assessment of the hand, I was simply commenting that this FELT like one of those AXs hands that limpers like. (you did not say prior that he was a habitual limper which opens up ranges further) I say FELT like, because, like gut feelings, they are a result of past experience. The betting pattern, followed by an ideal flop (for the limper), and the check raise...just screams Ax suited to me and likely A4-5 ish..(even weak players know a wheel draw is better than A6-9)

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:47 pm

Superman wrote:
This forum needs a "multiquote" function..
Is there such thing? I suggested that on two plus two and got laughed at.

I do stick by my original assessment of the hand, I was simply commenting that this FELT like one of those AXs hands that limpers like. (you did not say prior that he was a habitual limper which opens up ranges further) I say FELT like, because, like gut feelings, they are a result of past experience. The betting pattern, followed by an ideal flop (for the limper), and the check raise...just screams Ax suited to me and likely A4-5 ish..(even weak players know a wheel draw is better than A6-9)
[/quote]I think this is kinda small leak. But I didn't post this hand because I know am right so I can be wrong here.

In hand analysis we won't use feel, now I realize its more semantics here but I just want to be clear. I don't know from the past he is a habitual limper, I am making the assumption since he limped in this hand. By definition hes is going to be habitual since its no longer very likely at all that he is a good player. Since he is bad and limping, we can auto adjust our play without any info.

The reason we can do this is MY past experience, which BTP or Vekked I'm sure will agree that limpers limp, and its not often that a player limps soley AA but raises KT. It happens but if we take all limpers into a pool and look at them together we will seen maybe 5% of them only limp AA. So I am willing to bet that in general these players will have all their BW in this limping range.

The rest is about postflop but there no point in discussing it until we feel we can assume he limps BW

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:22 am

My original post to which, as I said, I still stand by...

Superman wrote:
well what ranges do we put villain on?

Again, this is kinda tough without knowing dynamics...but..limp-call to me sounds about 22-1010, 89s ,910s, 10js, OJs, KQs..maybe AQs if he has been a 'fraidy cat..

I think he raises JJ + and certainly comes over the top with QQ+

There are probably a few OS BW as well which I missed I see..

Is there such thing? I suggested that on two plus two and got laughed at.

PFC has it Razz

In hand analysis we won't use feel, now I realize its more semantics here but I just want to be clear. I don't know from the past he is a habitual limper, I am making the assumption since he limped in this hand. By definition hes is going to be habitual since its no longer very likely at all that he is a good player. Since he is bad and limping, we can auto adjust our play without any info.

The reason we can do this is MY past experience, which BTP or Vekked I'm sure will agree that limpers limp, and its not often that a player limps soley AA but raises KT. It happens but if we take all limpers into a pool and look at them together we will seen maybe 5% of them only limp AA. So I am willing to bet that in general these players will have all their BW in this limping range.

I Don't disagree at all...just the way it came across, it sounded like you might have had more history with him... If this is the first time he limp calls, it is more likely it is a trap vs. than if he has done this with many hands....Again, not saying always a trap...just a better chance of it..

All I was saying about that AXsuited...was that it really felt like that kind of a spot to me..wasn't defining the range to that only. I will learn not to think out loud so I don't confuse you Razz

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:37 am

Ya you confused me, im glad you agree haha, was worried cause I didn't know how to make it clearer Laughing

So he might be more likely to be trapping since we don't know his tendencies, but that doesn't mean at all the he is likely trapping. Hes more likely trapping than a play we have seen limp 5 hands. But the likelyhood he is trapping is going to be a function of all the hands he limps (BW included) vs. his trap hands. So it really isn't often he has a strong hand here.

Then once we iso and he doesn't repop he almost never has AQ+ TT+. So by this point hes almost NEVER trapping (since he wasn't trapping in the first place often either).

So knowing that he takes that range to the flop we need to look at the types of hands hell check raise for value, and what types he might check raise as a bluff (everyone bluffs some%)


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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:51 am

JodaB. wrote:Ya you confused me, im glad you agree haha, was worried cause I didn't know how to make it clearer Laughing

All that pot smoke will do that Smile



So he might be more likely to be trapping since we don't know his tendencies, but that doesn't mean at all the he is likely trapping. Hes more likely trapping than a play we have seen limp 5 hands. But the likelyhood he is trapping is going to be a function of all the hands he limps (BW included) vs. his trap hands. So it really isn't often he has a strong hand here.

agreeing completely..

Then once we iso and he doesn't repop he almost never has AQ+ TT+. So by this point hes almost NEVER trapping (since he wasn't trapping in the first place often either).

Also agreeing completely..

So knowing that he takes that range to the flop we need to look at the types of hands hell check raise for value, and what types he might check raise as a bluff (everyone bluffs some%)

I don't know that he has many hands here for value...77 and ummm...shit, I can't remember the original hand now..lol (another thing I hate..not being able to scroll back to beginning)..the other set that we don't have (not the 3 obv.) 22? I think he is check raising his AhXh hands and I guess technically they are for value as well even though not made hands..but still ahead of us..

As for his bluffing range, I don't know that he has the knowledge to actually bluff...we feel like he is raising AK, AQ...so not bluffing with those..he could very well be turning some small value hands into bluffs though...66? 88? 99(probably not this as we have one if I recall) If he has some broadways, he might jam KQ? AJ? with one heart?
hmm...this is starting to sound like he is checkraising nearly his whole range..lol

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:08 am

Superman wrote:
I don't know that he has many hands here for value...77 and ummm...shit, I can't remember the original hand now..lol (another thing I hate..not being able to scroll back to beginning)..the other set that we don't have (not the 3 obv.) 22? I think he is check raising his AhXh hands and I guess technically they are for value as well even though not made hands..but still ahead of us..

As for his bluffing range, I don't know that he has the knowledge to actually bluff...we feel like he is raising AK, AQ...so not bluffing with those..he could very well be turning some small value hands into bluffs though...66? 88? 99(probably not this as we have one if I recall) If he has some broadways, he might jam KQ? AJ? with one heart?
hmm...this is starting to sound like he is checkraising nearly his whole range..lol
ya hes going to check shove all his flush draw most likely, thats just what these players do, they love the check raise. Its value but they see it as a bluff. All pairs will check raise most sets.

He doesn't have the knowledge to bluff, but to say he doesn't bluff ever is silly. We often see villains show up with random air in spots like this, especially ones that limp pre and are therefore obviously bad.

So what does he check raise for air? I think kq is a likely hand that he spazzes with. Sure maybe with a back door flush draw, maybe not. I think its a reasonable thought though. So then we can think about JTo? If he'll shove KQ i think JTo isn't that much of a stretch.

This doesn't mean that we reasoned hes shoving any BW, but we can just say what it looks like in terms of the air parts of his range. Hes going to bluff shove some % of his BW I think for sure (and aces).

So using stove we can look at whether or not that effects our decision.

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:15 am

vs a range of all made hands

16.136% { 9d3d }
83.864% 83.84% { JJ-22, A7s, A3s, A7o }
we have very little equity,

but if we put in kq and kj our equity jumps alot

36.362% 36.35% { 9d3d }
Hand 1: 63.638% { JJ-22, A7s, A3s, KJs+, A7o, KJo+ }

With qj in the mix its looking like a clear call
41.980% { 9d3d }
58.020% { JJ-22, A7s, A3s, KJs+, QJs, A7o, KJo+, QJo }


Not saying this is valid but with all his bw we become a clear favorite.

55.372% { 9d3d }
44.628% { JJ-22, AJs-ATs, A7s, A3s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo-ATo, A7o, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

So that doesn't mean its a call but its nice to see it all in perspective before we make our decision. If we all in agreements here I have one things that was a leak for me here that I have dealt with and will help your 3betting.
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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:18 am

Sorry I didn't get into the discussion when it was happening, had ppl over for a game. From now on I will keep in mind that we can't eliminate his draws and air completely. So in general are you saying that we can add a small% of air and draws to weaker players and add a larger % of air and draws to better players?

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:25 am

Even with him obviously being weak, I just don't get the limp-call, check-raise with air...I am sure you are right though..it does happen...I would just think that it's quite a low %...
I wouldn't think twice about this if it were a 5 buck game...but it's a 50..

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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:01 am

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:Sorry I didn't get into the discussion when it was happening, had ppl over for a game. From now on I will keep in mind that we can't eliminate his draws and air completely. So in general are you saying that we can add a small% of air and draws to weaker players and add a larger % of air and draws to better players?
umm, I think we arne't sure yet whether certain players have a large or small % but I am saying that when we consider a spot we should look at our equity vs a small bluff % and vs a large bluff%. Further more we will construct the bluffing range from the hands still left in his range obviously. This will help us understand spots better.
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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:05 am

Superman wrote:Even with him obviously being weak, I just don't get the limp-call, check-raise with air...I am sure you are right though..it does happen...I would just think that it's quite a low %...
I wouldn't think twice about this if it were a 5 buck game...but it's a 50..
yes but I did show when we add kq kj to his range we are almost a call, and when we add qjo then it becomes an obvious call. So I'm not sure I can justify it here, but its not THAT far from a call. A problem I had on PFC is people were missing my point and concentrating on the wild play.

The point is to evaluate a dynamic bluff range from our opponent to give us an idea of what villain could be doing with his range.

Anyways so about isoing pre here something that I've come to realize. Since villain doesn't fold pre its not really a bluff, and its not obv for value. So the bet pre goes into the pot odds and I'm not getting the odds that it seems. So I actually have worse odds than we have shown. If you understand that then we can talk about CIB 3betting.
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Re: Preflop? Post flop?

Post  Superman on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:56 am

JodaB. wrote:
Superman wrote:Even with him obviously being weak, I just don't get the limp-call, check-raise with air...I am sure you are right though..it does happen...I would just think that it's quite a low %...
I wouldn't think twice about this if it were a 5 buck game...but it's a 50..
yes but I did show when we add kq kj to his range we are almost a call, and when we add qjo then it becomes an obvious call. So I'm not sure I can justify it here, but its not THAT far from a call. A problem I had on PFC is people were missing my point and concentrating on the wild play.

The point is to evaluate a dynamic bluff range from our opponent to give us an idea of what villain could be doing with his range.

Anyways so about isoing pre here something that I've come to realize. Since villain doesn't fold pre its not really a bluff, and its not obv for value. So the bet pre goes into the pot odds and I'm not getting the odds that it seems. So I actually have worse odds than we have shown. If you understand that then we can talk about CIB 3betting.

This is what I was going to ask about last night before I fell asleep..lol.

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