BVB shoving and calling

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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  sngking on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:27 pm

Well not a shove but.........

Table '691587554 2' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: dago535 (6098 in chips)
Seat 7: PHILLIIVEY1 (9010 in chips)
Seat 8: XuTPbIu4eH (1110 in chips)
Seat 9: Soniclol (10782 in chips)
dago535: posts the ante 25
PHILLIIVEY1: posts the ante 25
XuTPbIu4eH: posts the ante 25
Soniclol: posts the ante 25
PHILLIIVEY1: posts small blind 150
XuTPbIu4eH: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PHILLIIVEY1 [Qs 6d]
Soniclol: folds
dago535: folds
PHILLIIVEY1: raises 1095 to 1395
XuTPbIu4eH: folds
Uncalled bet (1095) returned to PHILLIIVEY1
PHILLIIVEY1 collected 700 from pot
PHILLIIVEY1: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 700 | Rake 0
Seat 1: dago535 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: PHILLIIVEY1 (small blind) collected (700)
Seat 8: XuTPbIu4eH (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Soniclol folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Also I just shipped this game! Laughing

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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:26 pm

sngking wrote:Well not a shove but.........

Table '691587554 2' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: dago535 (6098 in chips)
Seat 7: PHILLIIVEY1 (9010 in chips)
Seat 8: XuTPbIu4eH (1110 in chips)
Seat 9: Soniclol (10782 in chips)
dago535: posts the ante 25
PHILLIIVEY1: posts the ante 25
XuTPbIu4eH: posts the ante 25
Soniclol: posts the ante 25
PHILLIIVEY1: posts small blind 150
XuTPbIu4eH: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PHILLIIVEY1 [Qs 6d]
Soniclol: folds
dago535: folds
PHILLIIVEY1: raises 1095 to 1395
XuTPbIu4eH: folds
Uncalled bet (1095) returned to PHILLIIVEY1
PHILLIIVEY1 collected 700 from pot
PHILLIIVEY1: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 700 | Rake 0
Seat 1: dago535 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: PHILLIIVEY1 (small blind) collected (700)
Seat 8: XuTPbIu4eH (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Soniclol folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Also I just shipped this game! Laughing
Yes thats exactly it, that is all in because you put him all in

now would you have done this before we made this thread?

Would you shove 72o here?
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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  sngking on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:16 pm

Most likely no and no.


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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:27 pm

sngking wrote:Most likely no

Ok great!

This means your roi% went up. Since q6o is +ev here and you shoved, you can expect to win more sngs in the long term.


and no.

ok its good that you are honest with youself. So lets say you are folding every hand that is worse than Q6o, but Yoda is telling you that any hand is profitable.

So you fold 73o q2o j3o, 72s 84o all of these and more..so we learned something

YOU HAVE BEEN FOLDING WAAAAAAAAAAY TOO MUCH

So if you fold sooo many hands when you should be shoving bvb 10bbs your aces will get cracked too often for you to win a lot of sngs.



Okay find another hand where you shove bvb 10bbs or less with WORSE than q6o!!!
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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  sngking on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:49 pm

not sure if worse

***** Hand History for Game 94270766694 ***** (Poker Stars)
Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, February 18, 06:36:55 ET 2013
Table 691783099 3 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: luckylolly58 ( $3483.00 USD )
Seat 2: laros1973 ( $3115.00 USD )
Seat 3: dmitriptl ( $3306.00 USD )
Seat 4: dragulin91 ( $2165.00 USD )
Seat 5: Sherm1976 ( $2115.00 USD )
Seat 6: PHILLIIVEY1 ( $725.00 USD )
Seat 8: waski maniek ( $2536.00 USD )
Seat 9: pompierul_w ( $5730.00 USD )
PHILLIIVEY1 posts small blind [$75.00 USD].
waski maniek posts big blind [$150.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to PHILLIIVEY1 [ 5c 4c ]
pompierul_w folds
luckylolly58 folds
laros1973 folds
dmitriptl folds
dragulin91 folds
Sherm1976 folds
PHILLIIVEY1 raises [$650.00 USD]
waski maniek folds
PHILLIIVEY1 wins $575.00 USD
PHILLIIVEY1 wins $300.00 USD from main pot

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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:59 pm

Whatever thats perfect, especially if you weren't shoving that before hand.

So we might understand something now:

if shoving any two cards is profitable, meaning everything hand is +ev, then the more hands we shove in this 10bbs bvb spot the more +ev we gain and the more sngs we win.

In that way you might understand that Q6o is more profitable than KTo, because if we shove Q6o then we also shove Q7, Q8, Q9, QT, K7, K8, K9, etc.

So we have a 2nd level understanding of the game by thinking about the entire range we shove.

Lemme know if that makes sense. And keep posting bvb spots that you shove with weak hands!!!!!
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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  sngking on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:08 pm

|Yup,it makes sense. Cool

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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  JodaB. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:16 pm

sngking wrote:|Yup,it makes sense. Cool
Great, lets get a little more advanced then.

With 10bbs on the button, with antes in play, we will shove any two cards as well

So any hands that you used to fold in that spot, if you now shove them, that is the measure of your increase in poker play.
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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  RWPKRPLR1 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:38 pm

I was really hoping you two would keep going with this, I was enjoying this thread.

So if we shove ATC from the SB and BU when our stacks are effectively 10BB or less. How far can we go with this? OBV the CO & HJ, but what about in MP and EP? I'm thinking we should pass up on this in EP and maybe call a lighter LP shove when we move into the blinds.

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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  JodaB. on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:47 am

RWPKRPLR1 wrote:I was really hoping you two would keep going with this, I was enjoying this thread.

So if we shove ATC from the SB and BU when our stacks are effectively 10BB or less. How far can we go with this? OBV the CO & HJ, but what about in MP and EP? I'm thinking we should pass up on this in EP and maybe call a lighter LP shove when we move into the blinds.
nono it doesn't work like that, we need to shove tighter and tighter from each position away from the button, sb and bu vs tigh players (rec) will be close to atc with less than 10bbs antes.

This is what I can show with the nash calc
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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  sngking on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:03 pm

Bubbled, sigh! Crying or Very sad At least sngwiz says it was correct but part of me thinks I should not have done it with a "gambler" in the BB.

Played a bit better this game and feel good about that but 2 hands I raised pre and wiffed is where I lost the bulk of chips.

***** Hand History for Game 32333998966 ***** (Full Tilt)
Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, March 18, 07:48:02 ET 2013
Table 050 Sit Go (251125352) Table 1 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Seat 4: MrNoKs ( $4450.00 USD )
Seat 6: Szerokosci ( $2770.00 USD )
Seat 7: aceface1977 ( $5260.00 USD )
Seat 8: gworth ( $1020.00 USD )
gworth posts small blind [$60.00 USD].
MrNoKs posts big blind [$120.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to gworth [ Ks 6s ]
Szerokosci folds
aceface1977 folds
gworth raises [$960.00 USD]
MrNoKs calls [$900.00 USD]
gworth shows [Ks, 6s ]
MrNoKs shows [Ad, 8s ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, Qh, 6d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
MrNoKs wins $2040.00 USD from main pot

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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  JodaB. on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:20 pm

sngking wrote:Bubbled, sigh! Crying or Very sad At least sngwiz says it was correct but part of me thinks I should not have done it with a "gambler" in the BB.

Played a bit better this game and feel good about that but 2 hands I raised pre and wiffed is where I lost the bulk of chips.

***** Hand History for Game 32333998966 ***** (Full Tilt)
Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, March 18, 07:48:02 ET 2013
Table 050 Sit Go (251125352) Table 1 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Seat 4: MrNoKs ( $4450.00 USD )
Seat 6: Szerokosci ( $2770.00 USD )
Seat 7: aceface1977 ( $5260.00 USD )
Seat 8: gworth ( $1020.00 USD )
gworth posts small blind [$60.00 USD].
MrNoKs posts big blind [$120.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to gworth [ Ks 6s ]
Szerokosci folds
aceface1977 folds
gworth raises [$960.00 USD]
MrNoKs calls [$900.00 USD]
gworth shows [Ks, 6s ]
MrNoKs shows [Ad, 8s ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, Qh, 6d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
MrNoKs wins $2040.00 USD from main pot
nice hand, what did he show up with? Also what hands does sitngo wizard say we should shove?
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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  sngking on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:27 pm

He had A8, I think it said 73% of hands to push with the k6suited at the bottom of the king hands to do it with.

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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  JodaB. on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:57 pm

sngking wrote:He had A8, I think it said 73% of hands to push with the k6suited at the bottom of the king hands to do it with.
Doesn't matter to me if you are right I'm just happy you are think correct about it. I don't think k6 is the bottom as 73% is almost the entire deck.

Anyways, what hands did sng wiz suggest he would call with when it calculated 73% (or whatever it was), again you can guess as long as you remember its close...

or do you have sngwiz and we can post it?
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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  sngking on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:13 pm

JodaB. wrote:
sngking wrote:He had A8, I think it said 73% of hands to push with the k6suited at the bottom of the king hands to do it with.
Doesn't matter to me if you are right I'm just happy you are think correct about it. I don't think k6 is the bottom as 73% is almost the entire deck.

Anyways, what hands did sng wiz suggest he would call with when it calculated 73% (or whatever it was), again you can guess as long as you remember its close...

or do you have sngwiz and we can post it?


It said he only called like 20 some odd percent, I changed it to like 44% as that was closer to what he was calling.

I fired up another game and cashed! WOoohooo losing streak over. cheers I lost heads up with AK vs A7, of course the luckbox (he is a luckbox as I have played games with him before) hits a 7.

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Re: BVB shoving and calling

Post  JodaB. on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:20 pm

sngking wrote:


It said he only called like 20 some odd percent, I changed it to like 44% as that was closer to what he was calling.
Meh thats too loose even for a call station, but I like how you are looking at those things. I think 30 tops is better and plus remember you have a king and thats alot of his calling range.

Remember JodaB. says shove ATC and don't think about it, so my range minus your range is the range you fold and every hand is +ev.

Cause remember I shove ATC on the button with 10bbs vs these same players and your only in the sb.
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